Say one had a view about what justice is but did not see justice, as understood on that view, instantiated in the world.  Would one conclude that one’s view of justice was mistaken?  Not necessarily–else everyone on this blog would have to concede being in error.  Our shared view–we have differences certainly, but we also share much in common–is certainly not instantiated in the world we live in.

Ok.  Say one had a view about what justice is but did not see justice, as understood on that view, instantiated in the world nor plausibly realizable in the world.  Now would one conclude that one’s view of justice was mistaken?  Here, I think, my view differs from that of several of my co-bloggers.  I still think the answer should be “not necessarily.” Of course, the view might be wrong–but that was true in the previous scenario as well.

The two scenarios are very different.  BHLs that think concession is the only correct response in the second scenario but not in the first might say “look, if it were clearly demonstrated that a BHL society were impossible due to empirical facts (about human beings, economics, politics, or what-have-you), I would give up BHL.”  (They would presumably say the same about libertarianism in general.) They would likely add something like “Of course, there is no clear demonstration of such a claim.  Indeed, quite the opposite.  Consider empirical facts A, B, and C; they clearly support the possibility of BHL.”

I agree with some version of that second claim–there is no good reason to think a BHL society is impossible on empirical grounds.  But, as a BH-Ideal Theory-L, I also think that is beside the point.  I would not necessarily stop thinking BHL was (or included) the right view of justice if that view could not be instantiated in the world we live in.  I would give up that view if it was shown to be conceptually incoherent or to contradict other known facts (of a relevant sort) that are even more clearly right.  (There may be other things that would make me give up on BHL, but I am not sure what they are.)  Empirical facts, though, are not always (or usually) the sort of thing that can disprove normative claims.

That last sentence is weak.  Intentionally so.  Some people think that David Hume showed that one cannot go from an is to an ought.  He actually did not show such a thing.  Indeed, he did not even claim such a thing.  He merely claimed that too many writers went too quickly from one to the other without careful thought.  That is surely true.  Still, I think there are times when one can go from an is to an ought.  But not just any “is” will do it.  That is, I don’t think just any empirical facts that make BHL impossible to instantiate would make it the wrong view of justice.  There is impossible, after all, and impossible.  I suppose I would agree that BHL is wrong if the empirical facts were such that it is necessarily impossible to instantiate BHL–meaning the empirical facts at issue are not themselves contingent.  But that is not the sort of claim typically made by non-ideal theory opponents of BHL–those are rather about contingent empirical facts (or so I think).

I’ll close with a quote from G.A. Cohen, whose work I admire greatly even though I disagree with his politics.  About ideal theory, I think he was right.  With him, “I want to know what justice is whatever I or anyone else may think is the right form and amount of the contribution that justice should make to political and social practice.  I personally happen also to be exercised by the latter question, but one need not be exercised by it in order to care about the first one” (2008, 307).

  • http://profiles.google.com/jtlevy Jacob Levy

    And I continue to have very nearly no idea what to make of this Platonic conception of the form of Justice, potentially not only unknowable but also inapplicable even as a standard of evaluation to human societies.  Maybe the Good is like that.  But justice generalizes from ius; it is grounded in the remediation of known difficulties in human social coexistence.  G.A. Cohen’s view– and, if he endorses it, then Andrew Cohen’s view– seems to me mistaken not only methodologically, about the task of political philosophy, but also conceptually, about the kind of normative value *justice* is.

    • Jessica Flanigan

      Surely there isn’t ::just one:: task of political philosophy. One thing we can do is to figure out what kind of society would be best, (an egalitarian one? a free society? is democracy intrinsically good? anarchy?) and another thing we can do is to figure out what we should actually do, given ‘known difficulties in human social coexistence.’ Like Estlund says, these can be different projects, it may be that we can’t live in the best kind of society because we are socialized or genetically disposed to mess it up. But it can still be a valuable project for political philosophy to make the case that a certain kind of society would be best, if only because such an argument could be an argument for the truth. And in sketching the ideal we might also learn something about what we should actually do, not what we should aim for necessarily, but what our values are or should be. 

      • Kevin Vallier

        I’m with Jacob on this one, but let me try to provide an argument to substantiate our shared intuition. I know the following premises are disputed, but I think they are nonetheless defensible.

        (1) A principle of justice is true only if persons generally have reason to comply with it.

        This seems to me to be a conceptual truth. It is not question-begging as Cohen-squared could accept it, holding that we have reason to comply with impossibly instantiated principles of justice.

        (2) Persons have reason to act only if they have some goal, desire or aim that is served by acting on the reason.

        Premise (2) is a species of motivational internalism but it is an assumption that I think slumbers at the heart of most political philosophy over the last four hundred years and, arguably, extends without interruption back to many of the Greeks. Cohen-squared will deny this premise (GA-Cohen explicitly denies this premise). But it is a deeply plausible metaethical principle.

        From (1) and (2) follow:

        (3) A principle of justice is true only if acting on it will serve some goal, desire or aim affirmed by (some suitably large) group of persons.

        I take it that Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Kant, Rawls, Gauthier, Habermas, Sen and most contemporary political philosophers affirm (3). Justice is suppose to make a real difference in human lives in ways that command their allegiance. The concept of justice is bound up with our real-world motivations, interests and needs. This isn’t meant to convince Cohenites that they are wrong, merely to lay bare the theoretical costs of accepting the pure-ideal-theory view. The cost is basically denying (2), which I consider serious.

        • Jessica Flanigan

          I think this gets the direction of fit wrong. If a principle of justice is true, then people have genuine reason to believe it, not the other way around. Justice isn’t an opinion survey, and in this way facts about justice do not depend on whether people affirm them or not. That is why we can be mistaken about justice. In the times of ancient slavery when everyone affirmed the permissibility of slavery (or at least most people, including the slaves) everyone was wrong! Philosophy is a progressive discipline and we have sense made progress in figuring out what justice requires. This doesn’t mean that the content of justice has changed because now we think that it is incompatible with slavery. 

          The point is, facts about justice do not depend on whether some ‘suitably large group of persons’ have a desire that is affirmed by acting on it. To believe in a theory of justice for those reasons is to believe in justice for the wrong kinds of reasons. 

          • Andrew Cohen

            Thanks Jessica!

        • purple_platypus

           This post puzzles me. I grant that (1) and (2) are individually plausible, but they do not seem particularly plausible *together*. Or if they do, it is because they mean different things by “reason”. Kevin, I’m sure you’re not making such an elementary mistake as confusing normativity with motivation; but if you’re not, then I’m afraid I could use some explanation as to what you ARE up to, because on their most natural readings, (1) uses “reason” in the former sense and (2) in the latter.

          This means that any argument to (3) can’t be as simple as just juxtaposing (1) and (2), on pain of committing your basic equivocation fallacy. More saliently, it also means that neither Cohen needs to deny the most plausible version of (2), in which “reason” means MOTIVATING reason.

        • j_m_h

          I don’t see that the argument holds. P1 is about generalized rationale to agree with the concept while P2 is about specific actions accomplishing specific ends. 

          Much of Buchanan’s work in political economy points to divergence between these two areas of human behavior in social settings.

        • Andrew Cohen

          Kevin-Again, I think Jessica’s response is on target. j_m_h also strikes me as right (at least the first part), as does purple_platypus’s.

          • Kevin Vallier

            Andrew, I am surprised you agree with purple, as he accuses me of committing an elementary fallacy, whereas I am in fact relying on a well-worn metaethical premise (motivational internalism, a version of which I thought Jess affirmed).

            Given your post and agreement with Jess, I infer that you deny motivational internalism, which means you think principles of justice can give us reasons for action that are completely (completely!) motivationally inert. That is, I can have a reason to X that I recognize as a reason to X but I have zero (not positive, but overridden) motivation to act on. Is that your view?

          • Andrew Cohen

            Kevin-I read purple as thinking you could not be making that mistake and so wondering where else the mistake was.  That said, my intuitions lean toward accepting motivational internalism.  I  think my problem with your argument is actually with premise 1 and the use of “reason” there.  So, can you say more about what sort of reason you are talking about in premise 1?

          • purple_platypus

            This was indeed what I was getting at – and what my main question is now.

            One point of disagreement is that I do *not* accept motivational internalism. But even if I grant it for the sake of argument, my puzzlement remains intact. Motivational internalism alone doesn’t bridge the (I hope merely apparent) gap between the two instances of “reason” in Kevin’s argument. The motivational internalist says that sincerely assenting to some moral belief – say, holding some conception of justice to be true or correct – necessarily entails at least some motivation to act in accordance with it. He does not say that such a conception necessarily motivates merely by being *true*, or anything like that. (He’d *better* not be saying that, because that’s pretty obviously false.) So the use of “reason” in (2) still doesn’t appear to match the use of “reason” in (1), at least not without further explanation.

    • Andrew Cohen

      Jacob: I think Jessica’s replies have been great.  See also my earlier post about the topic, at http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/12/why-i-am-a-bleeding-heart-ideal-libertarian/.
      Of course, I disagree that “justice generalizes from ius.”  I suspect, rather, that ius derives from justice.

  • http://independent.academia.edu/DannyFrederick Danny Frederick

    I agree that there can be theoretical profit in exploring ideals even if the ideals could never be realised in practice – human nature and the world being as they are. But I think there are also various dangers in such activity.  One is the risk that we become detached from reality and ‘live in a fantasy world.’ Our theory then becomes degenerate, like that of those apocryphal theologians debating how many angels could stand on a pinpoint. Another danger is that we confuse our fantasy with practical possibility and end up giving support to policy proposals that will be disastrous, as might have been the case with G A Cohen – there is a relevant paper by Jason Brennan here:
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/jr53380w0k1tjkk7/fulltext.pdf
    So one has to take precautions against the risks to reap the rewards.

    You say: ‘Empirical facts…are not always (or usually) the sort of thing that can disprove normative claims.’

    Empirical facts cannot disprove any claims: any empirical (or other) facts can always be evaded or accommodated by ad hoc strategies. But if we are serious about improving our knowledge, we will eschew ad hoc strategies. Further, we will also attempt to find ways of making our claims falsifiable, including our normative claims.  It seems to me that moral theory is essentially connected with human flourishing (what else can morals be for?). So we should be prepared to test our moral theories against empirical facts. One way of doing this is to ask: how would (real) people (actually) fare if they adopted, and tried to live by, this moral theory? If we attempt to answer that question for rival moral theories, we may be able to rate different moral theories as better or worse.

    Unrealisable ideals, of course, cannot be subjected to such a test. So we cannot rest content with an ideal theory. While it can be profitable to explore ideal theories, one also needs a non-ideal theory (which may be informed by the ideal). Indeed, the only theoretical (as opposed to emotional) profit in ideal theories consists in what the exploration of them can teach us about non-ideal theories. That, then, is the sort of precaution we must take when we engage in ideal theory: we must always relate our enquiries and results back to reality. Our  ideal theorising should be a means to improving our non-ideal theory.

    • Andrew Cohen

      Danny-I agree with your first paragraph.  Caution is definitely warranted.  I think you overstate the case about empirical facts, but probably not in a way that is a problem here.  (The empirical fact of my shirt being solid green disproves the claim that my shirt is red.)
      Importantly, I often agree with–but sometimes waver about–the claim that morality is about human flourishing.  Certainly the state and law should be about that (why else have such?).  Morality may also.  Or it may simply be about rational requirements regardless of outcomes, even for human welfare (admittedly, I have a hard time writing that “with a straightface”).  About your last paragraph, see my earlier post about this topic at http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/12/why-i-am-a-bleeding-heart-ideal-libertarian/

      • http://independent.academia.edu/DannyFrederick Danny Frederick

         Hi Andrew,

        ‘The empirical fact of my shirt being solid green disproves the claim that my shirt is red.’

        Well, it would if we knew for sure it was an empirical fact. But the fact that your shirt looks green does not mean that it is. There could be something unusual happening with the light, or you might be on medication that makes red things look green, or you might be hallucinating (perhaps even the shirt does not really exist), or we might make discoveries about light which reveal to us that some things that look green are really red, even though most things that look green under normal conditions are really green, and your shirt falls into the former category, and so on.

        Some of those possibilities may seem recherche. But they are the types of possibilities that philosophers and some professed scientists (such as Marxists) postulate to save their pet theories. They are also the type of possibilities that real scientists postulate in making discoveries. Recall, for example, that Urey’s discovery of heavy hydrogen showed that what scientists had previously taken to be water, and used in defining  measurements of other things, was actually a mixture of two physically different substances. The difference between the pseudo-scientists and the scientists is that the latter seek to test their postulations, rather than merely resting content that they have found a way of saving their pet theory.

        • Andrew Cohen

          Danny- How about this: the empirical fact of my shirt seeming to Joe to be solid green (at specific place and time) disproves the claim that my shirt seems to Joe to be solid red (at same specific place and time).

          • http://independent.academia.edu/DannyFrederick Danny Frederick

            Well, it would if we knew for sure it was an empirical fact your shirt seems green to Joe. But how do we know how things seem to Joe? Can even Joe be sure how things seem to him? I don’t think so. Schwitzgebel has a discussion of such cases in his critique of naive introspection, available here:

            http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/Naive1.pdf

          • Andrew Cohen

            Danny-That is getting into a very different issue!

    • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

      Hi Danny,
      You say:
      “So we should be prepared to test our moral theories against empirical facts. One way of doing this is to ask: how would (real) people (actually) fare if they adopted, and tried to live by, this moral theory? If we attempt to answer that question for rival moral theories, we may be able to rate different moral theories as better or worse.”

      But…”fare” according to what standard? Welfare, opportunity for welfare, feelings of being a valued member of some larger community, or (my favorite) having my moral autonomy respected? There are a virtually infinite number of moral ends, but most of them can only be realized by resort to methods that some of us regard as morally impermissible, while others gladly embrace them. The resort to “human flourishing” seems to assume away this problem.

      However, I believe any attempt to ground ethics in “human flourishing” is a dead end because that there is no single definition of this concept that can be shown to be preferrable in any objective way to the millions of rivals that exist. But, even if one could be selected, I am afraid that we have no recourse but to resort to non-falsifiable moral principles to decide what means may legitimately be employed to realize or promote this goal.  For example, if we define “human flourishing” in terms of equal opportunity, this may only be achievable by making some people work for the benefit of others so as to provide them with the necessary resources for equality with the more naturally talented. How does one falsify the claim that persons should not be used solely as a tool for achieving the greater good? 

      This is not to say that empirical facts about us are not important in defining an acceptable morality. For example, I believe it is clear that most competent adults are moral agents, i.e. capable of discerning right from wrong and acting accordingly. From this fact about persons, I believe that certain normative implications follow. But, apart from accepting this factual premise (which could at least in theory be falsified, I guess), I do not see that the normative conclusions (e.g. respect for persons as moral agents) can be falsified, or that moral claims are not meaningful or important unless they can potentially be falsified.

      • http://independent.academia.edu/DannyFrederick Danny Frederick

         Hi Mark,

        I agree with most of the things you say, but not with the spirit of your message. Your main point is, of course, correct: it will be difficult to find ways of testing moral theories against the facts (or what we take to be the facts). But I think it is defeatist not to try.

        We get the same thing in social science, where many people say that social phenomena are all too complex for us to be able to isolate factors sufficiently to enable a hypothesis to be tested. But we have the same problem in the physical sciences, and there the scientists do make progress. How do they do it? They make assumptions, they simplify, they use analogies, they build models, they make use of approximations, etc. The same approach can be adopted in social science, as Gordon Tullock argued in his ‘Organization of Inquiry,’ which I recommend, and which is available here:
        http://files.libertyfund.org/files/1555/Tullock_1279-03_EBk_v6.0.pdf

        It is a real problem that, if we want to test moral theories against human flourishing, we must make use of moral theories in identifying flourishing. This parallels the problem in the physical sciences, that we want to test theories against the facts, but all the facts are theory-laden (recall the Urey example I used in my response to Andrew). But the scientists make progress despite this fact – see Popper’s ‘Logic of Scientific Discovery,’ chapter 5, for discussion – the book is available here:
        http://www.cosmopolitanuniversity.ac/library/LogicofScientificDiscoveryPopper1959.pdf

        Why can’t we make progress in testing moral theories too?

        For example, suppose, as you say, someone defines human flourishing in terms of equal opportunity conceived as government redistribution. We can point out the consequences of implementing that proposal and ask them, in the light of these consequences, do they really think that is human flourishing? Our arguments here are both theoretical (‘road to serfdom’ type arguments) and empirical (look at states in which this sort of thing happens). Of course, some people will be so dogmatically committed to equality that they will say ‘yes, even with these consequences, equality is best,’ or ‘no, those consequences are products not of equality but of interfering factors,’ and so on. We get the same thing in physics. Newton’s theory was not accepted by French physicists for something like fifty years after it was accepted everywhere else, because the French physicists would not give up their adherence to Descartes. It was only when the old dogmatists died out that France got up to date.

        You have hit on the right problems, and you are right to point out these difficulties. But I think it is a mistake to give up in the face of difficulties and to retreat into unfalsifiable moral theories. What hope is there in that?

        • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

          Hi Danny,
          As always, good to hear from you. I see several major problems in restricting the tools of moral inquiry to the ones used by scientists–whether we are talking about the hard or social ones. 

          First, empirical facts at best will only inform us of the consequences of moral actions or policies, they will not adequately explain why we should or should not act in certain ways or pass certain laws. So, we would expect to observe that societies that enforce prohibitions against naked aggression (e.g. they punish people who kill others simply to grab their property) are more stable and productive, and their members enjoy higher levels of welfare, than communities that don’t enforce such prohibitions.

          But, it would be a major mistake, I think, to conclude simply from this observation that the reason that the unjustified killing of human beings is wrong is because the absence of such a prohibition will produce societies with suboptimal levels of welfare. This might explain why we have in fact evolved certain moral norms, but it doesn’t adequately explain why it is wrong to kill; yet most ethicists believe that acceptable moral theories must provide such explanations.

          Moreover, it is certainly possible to ask: “Why do we care about human welfare at all?” In other words, even to count a certain outcome as a “good” rather than a “bad” seems to require some sort of value judgment that is not itself subject to verification or falsification. Whereas in the sciences we are not concerned with the goodness or the badness of the fact that (for example) gravitation fields bend light. This is a fact, but scientists are not called upon to evaluate such facts in terms of good/bad, whereas one of the primary tasks of morality is precisely to explain the goodness or badness of various states of affairs, such as elevating the level of human welfare.

          Finally, your approach seems to assume away any unavoidable value trade-offs that may exist in the real world. So, it may actually be the case that you can have greater overall material welfare in a society, but only at the cost of treating a relatively small group of people in a way that libertarians/classical liberals deem offensive. It therefore begs the question to label egalitarians as “dogmatic” in such a case, because there is simply a conflict of values, and all the empirical observations in the world will not resolve it.  What is more important, greater overall welfare or respect for rights?

          In light of the above, I don’t think it is “defeatest” to recognize the limits of empiricism in moral reasoning–rather it simply recognizes reality, i.e. the study of morality is just different than the sciences in certain fundamental ways. Moreover, the fact that our most bedrock moral premises are not falsifiable, does not mean that no progress is possible, because some will be shown to be more intuitively attractive than others, and some will have implications that can be shown to conflict with other values that their proponents claim to accept.

          • http://independent.academia.edu/DannyFrederick Danny Frederick

             Hi Mark,

            Again, I agree with most of what you say. Let me go straight to the points of disagreement.

            You might be thinking that the tools of the scientist are somewhat restricted. But that is not so. Scientists can use any tools. As Popper says, ‘there is no such thing as scientific method.’

            I am not an empiricist. I am a critical rationalist. Theory comes first. Most of what scientists do is speculation, of one sort or another, tempered by criticism. Experience is only the ultimate test of a theory; a great deal of critical work is done in the armchair or in discussions. Even experimentalists have to think up how to test a theory, what experiments might constitute a good test, what controls may be needed and how to build them in, etc.

            I am not a utilitarian. I do speak of welfare, but I more often speak of flourishing, and I always mean the flourishing of all people, not a select few. Respect for private property, including the private property people have in their own bodies, is essential for human flourishing (I think). That is not to say that it guarantees it. Nothing can guarantee flourishing because people need to realise it for themselves. But some environments facilitate it and others suck. A preoccupation with equality sucks, in my view. We don’t need to be equal to flourish; we just need respect for our rights. Given that, we will welcome inequality.

            There is genuine work to do within ethical theory to explain how different bits of moral thinking, and moral systems, fit together, and what explains what (I agree with your third paragraph). But I think moral theories must be tested, ultimately,  against their implications for human life. The empirical work is essential, though I agree it is not everything.

            Yes, there are value trade-offs, and different people can be expected to make the trade in different ways. We need different societies between which people can choose, or which they can try out to see which one they best flourish in. If egalitarians want to live in a socialist hell-hole because equality is that important to them, that is fine by me. Just don’t expect me to come along.

            I don’t accept that there are any bedrock moral premises. I don’t accept bedrock premises of any kind. That is not how we get knowledge.  Good theories are not like houses built on solid foundations, they are like balloons which float in the air until they are hit by sharp criticism which explodes them.

            Intuitive attractiveness is important; but it is also fragile. What is intuitively attractive to us depends upon the theories we hold. If we change those theories, which we may well do under the pressure of criticism, our new theories will bring along with them a different set of intuitions. This is shown not only by the history of mathematics and science, but also by the history of moral thinking (a point Jessica made earlier).

            It is always good to hear from you, too, Mark.

          • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

            Hi Danny,
            Let me see if I can bridge the methodological gap a little bit. Consider a proposition of the following sort: “It is wrong to torture other human beings for our own amusement.” Would you object if instead of describing this as a bedrock moral “premise” I said it was one of my basic moral “assumptions” (or my “working hypothesis,” if you prefer)? Would you object if I further said that any moral theory that either directly or by logical implication condoned torturing other people solely for fun was thereby incorrect, based on everything we know to date? Finally, do you agree that it might be the case that, however long humanity continues to exist, that my proposition will never be falsified and would thus continue to be regarded as correct throughout the future of humanity? If so, then maybe there is no (or very little) practical consequence of our different epistemologies.

            Regardless of how we think of values, I continue to be suspicious of resort to “human flourishing” as a criterion because I believe that everyone has a different understanding of what this means for them, and many of these understandings involve making demands on other people. So, I think we will need something outside of this notion to arbitrate which visions may be pursued without valid objection and which involve morally impermissible means.

          • http://independent.academia.edu/DannyFrederick Danny Frederick

            Hi Mark,

            I don’t like the word ‘basic.’  But some theories are clearly better than their rivals, given the current state of debate. These are the leading theories (not the basic ones – there are no basic ones).

            I think your proposition “It is wrong to torture other human beings for our own amusement” is false. There are many people who enjoy being tortured for other people’s amusement. So long as this happens by consent (as it does on the S/M scene), there is no problem. But I presume you would concede this point and append “without their consent” to your proposition.

            So modified, I agree that the proposition is a leading theory and that, therefore, any theory that conflicts with it seems to be false given the current state of debate. I agree not only that it might be the case that the proposition will never be falsified, but that it is very implausible to say that it might one day be falsified. Still, implausible though that is, it might, for all we know, come about. After the discovery of Neptune it was highly implausible that Newton’s theory would one day be rejected as false. But it happened.

            I agree that the mere expression “human flourishing” is too vague to be much use in attempting to test moral theories. At the moment I am gesturing at a way of testing moral theories against empirical facts. This proposal needs a lot of working out. I have not get very far yet.

          • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

            Hi Danny,
            Yes, you correctly understood my intent, and thanks for clarifying your ideas for me. All the best.

  • Damien S.

    I stumbled across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism just now.  “Social liberalism is the belief that liberalism should include social justice. It differs from classical liberalism in that it believes the legitimate role of the state includes addressing economic and social issues such as unemployment, health care, and education while simultaneously expanding civil rights.”  Which isn’t the usual “support for gay marriage and abortion rights” of US discourse.  Anyway, the phrasing, especially the first sentence, made me think of BHL.

  • Hume22

    This reminded me of a passage by Leslie Green.  In criticizing the unfortunate tendency of political theorists to assume legitimate political authority in searching for a theory of legitimacy, he writes: “To put it another way, consent theory may offer a correct conception of what it would be for the authority of states to be justified while at the same time offering an explanation of why it is not.  Just as the best conception of free will may support the conclusion that we do not have it, the best conception of legitimate authority may show that it does not exist.”  Green, The Authority of the State 166 (1988).

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rick-DiMare/100000504645309 Rick DiMare

      Yes, the true test as to whether the United States is a legitimate libertarian experiment will be if the IRS actually recognizes self-ownership one day, i.e., actually allows a natural person claimant’s wages to be treated and taxed as one’s personal property, not income.

      You would have thought the Civil War would have been enough to prove our Constitution’s legitimacy, but apparently the tires need to be kicked more. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Villee/1212345726 Stephen Villee

    Regarding “they would presumably say the same about libertarianism in general,” I’m not sure this follows from giving up BHL.

    I’d like to propose this question for readers here: what is a suitable tithe rate to achieve your notion of social justice in a typical society?  Specifically, suppose we define a minimum standard of living that our sense of justice will tolerate, and identify the income needed to achieve that standard.  Then anyone who earns more than this much income will be expected to tithe the excess at a certain rate.  Then the question is this: what tithe rate is needed to ensure everyone gets at least the minimum standard of living?  For the purposes of this thought experiment, assume the tithe is voluntary and everyone actually pays up.  Or if you prefer, the tithe is levied as a tax paid to an idealized bureaucracy that does an excellent job of distributing funds appropriately.

    What I’m trying to do is quantify the legitimate demand for charity in a typical society.  In other words, just how needy are typical folks?

    Of course, it depends very much on how you define the minimum standard of living.  Is it enough to be not starving, or do you need to be reasonably comfortable?  Are you guaranteed a liver transplant if you need it when you’re 30?  When you’re 80?  But for the moment, assume we’ve chosen a minimum standard that is acceptable to most people.

    I’d like to focus on estimating the necessary tithe rate.  Keep in mind the society needs to be sustainable, so we can’t make up for shortfalls through deficit spending, as almost every country does nowadays.  Also, I wouldn’t think the tithe rate would need to vary too much by region.  On average, folks are the same everywhere, and a certain percentage of them are going to need help everywhere.  So the needed rate ought to be some kind of constant, essentially an attribute of human nature.

    It’s tempting to say “the needed rate is whatever it is, and we can worry about that detail once we’ve built our ideal BHL society.”  But I think it’s important to make some kind of estimate early on.  The main reason is this: what if the rate turns out to be more than 100%?  In other words, suppose no tithe, even with idealized compliance, is enough to ensure the minimum standard for everyone?  Even if it’s less than 100%, you can argue that anything over about 70% is impractical, resulting in massive tithe evasion.

    Honestly, this is my concern.  I see a whole lot of poverty in the world, and my fear is that no BHL society can handle all of it.  In fact, I’m not sure any society can handle all of it, or even most of it.  I’ve been thinking for years that poverty is just a fact of life, that it’s been around for thousands of years, and likely will be around for thousands more years, and it’s nobody’s fault.

    If I’m right, then a BHL society is an exercise in futility.  We each need to prioritize our charity, helping out those we admire the most.  A standard libertarian society would preserve our right to do that, even if some people are starving.

    I would love to be proven wrong.  I’m hoping some readers here can estimate the needed tithe rate and point to some empirical data to back it up.

    • Damien S.

      Question’s kind of vague or impossible.  “The main reason is this: what if the rate turns out to be more than 100%? “  That’s rather absurd in a simplistic model.  In a more complex one, where the existence of the tithe and minimum is assumed to discourage work, well, I’m not sure anyone has a reliable model of that, let alone anyone posting here.

      For simple models, say basic income is $10,000, which gives a total of $3 trillion.  US GDP is $14 trillion.  Assuming $3T of that is given to everyone and hence not taxed, we have to tax the other $11T at a rate of 27% to obtain the ‘tithe’.  If basic income is $3333, for basic food and minimal (tent?) shelter, that’s $1 trillion, so we’d need $1T out of $13T, for a 7.7% rate, less than the traditional 10% tithe.  And probably not many people are going to stop working because of $3333 per year.

      “poverty is just a fact of life, that it’s been around for thousands of
      years, and likely will be around for thousands more years, and it’s
      nobody’s fault.”

      Well, in a real sense, poverty is the default state, hence nobody’s fault; we start out as a bunch of ignorant primates, and possibly the victims of past uncoordinated decisions leading to overbreeding.

      However, in another real sense, we are much much richer than we’ve ever been, partly because of hard-won knowledge and partly because of unsustainable resource use, and current poverty is both often a result of specific distributional decisions rather than of any absolute constraints and in absolute terms rather well off.  It’s a commonplace that what the US considers poor internally is rather wealthy by historical standards: low infant mortality, long life, insulated home with running water and electricity and appliances, electronic entertainment.  Even much of the world which is still truly poor is seeing longer lifespans and cell phones.

      The really low standard for poverty is living on less than $2 a day.  Say there’s a billion people like that.  We could double their income for $700 billion a year.  World GDP is around $60,000 billion.  Or they could become truly wealthy, not just getting handouts, with appropriate education, infrastructure, and government.  In fact, much of the world is doing just that.

      “Poverty will always be with us” is defeatist tripe at this stage, I’m afraid.  We have the knowhow to eliminate absolute poverty, and relative poverty is a political choice.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Villee/1212345726 Stephen Villee

         The original article asked whether a BHL society was plausibly realizable.  I extended the question to ask whether a socially just society is feasible at all.  I know we all want the answer to be yes, but that’s exactly why it’s important to be sure we’re not suffering from wishful thinking.  The fact that poverty has been so persistent and so pervasive for thousands of years should at least introduce reasonable doubt that we can lick it now.

        I emphasized sustainability, and I agree with you that much of our current wealth is due to unsustainable resource use.  Several of your calculations were based on the current US GDP of $14T.  Do you believe that level is sustainable?

        As I mentioned, it makes a big difference how you define the minimum standard of living.  Do you consider the $3333/year level socially just?  If not, how about the $10000/year level?  The current federal poverty level for 1 is $11170/year.  Are they being too generous?

        Can you cite a current example of a sustainable society of any size, where the level of poverty is down to the level you consider socially just?  Honestly, seeing an example would be a big help for me.

        • Damien S.

          You’re mixing up different issues, like poverty as a matter of justice within a society and poverty in absolute terms. Primitive hunter-gatherer societies are provably sustainable and generally highly egalitarian.  They’re also poor in lots of absolute ways… though allegedly rich in leisure, and healthier than early farmers were.  If we collapsed back to H-G levels, the few survivors could well be wealthier than primitive H-Gs were, due to retained knowledge of germ hygiene, inoculation, alphabetic writing, antiseptics, plus various crops and animals, etc.

          No sustainable society provided wealth at an absolute level that we’d accept today, because they didn’t know how.  No wealthy society today has had a chance to demonstrate sustainability, since per capita wealth has exploded by a factor of 100 in a couple of centuries.  So no, I can’t show an example of a wealthy sustainable society, but in context this doesn’t mean much of anything.

          One possible and powerful reason for “the poor always being with us” is that we always have people who’d like to be rich at other people’s expense.

          As for the dollar amount questions, I think my other reply is a more useful answer.  Or: do I think we can sustainably provide food, good housing, electricity, home appliances, clothing, and transportation to everyone?  Yes.  Do I think we can do that without obligating or strongly incentivizing people to work?  No.

    • Andrew Cohen

      Stephen-I can’t really answer the question, but I’ll say this.  Someone recently told me that they read of a survey that asked US citizens what they thought people should pay in taxes.  The result, apparently, was that most people seemed to think 25% was right.  This shocked me (and I did not see the report myself).  I would have thought, frankly, that most people would say “about 10%.”  That may be my own prejudice because I suspect some number close to that is right.  
      In any case, I think Damien’s response is at least partly right.  I think that if we could get bad government out of the way, everyone would be better off.  But I realize, of course, just what a stereotypical–and, indeed, empty–thing that is to say.  But filling it out will have to wait.

      • Damien S.

        10% is traditional in a way, going back to Babylonia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe
        Then again that was often just for charity or “church”, not full taxes.
        Islamic zakat is apparently a 2.5% wealth tax, 10% labor tax, and 20% unearned income (like found treasure) tax.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax#History
        Genesis has 20% paid to Pharaoh as tax.

        In particular, a pre-monetary economy might see a tax of 10% of agricultural produce, and additional corvee or direct labor tax.  Persians in their empire didn’t pay tax, but were liable for the army.

        A different question could be “how much of their labor should people direct for public goods, like maintaining roads or irrigation (or Dutch dikes), supporting the elderly in return for being supported, police and defense?”

        (One answer being “as much as it takes to provide those necessary goods”)

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Villee/1212345726 Stephen Villee

           Thanks for these links.  It looks like there’s been quite a variety of rates over history.  Of course, all of these represent what people are willing or able to pay…what the market will bear, so to speak.  What I’m looking for is the rate that’s actually enough to provide social justice.  I know I’d be willing to pay a 50% tithe if I could be sure it would really accomplish this.  But of course it never happens.  The same social problems keep recurring over and over, and the politicians always say they need just a little more taxes, a little more deficit spending, a little more quantitative easing.

          As you mentioned elsewhere, it takes more than just money to bring social justice.  We would need good teachers, good administrators, and so on.  I guess I have confidence that human ingenuity will find a solution for the non-financial issues.  It’s the economic part that worries me.

          What I’d really like to see is a working prototype for a socially just society…a proof of concept if you will.  It can be of any size: a country, a state, a county or just a village.  It can be a BHL society or an authoritarian one.  Use taxes, a tithe or whatever, but find a way to achieve social justice there as you see it.  Make sure everyone in that society actually has the positive rights you think they deserve.  And of course it must be sustainable: after initial funding, there must be no external bailouts, and the society can’t be just spending down a bank account somewhere.  After say ten years, I’ll believe it’s sustainable, and I’ll be a big chearleader for whoever accomplished it.

          • Damien S.

            Well, none of these are perfect, but the Scandinavian social democracies, followed by France the Netherlands and Germany, and then Canada UK Australia Japan, are good starting points; certainly more just than the US model, in my eyes, and probably closer to labor sustainability in having less dependence on cheap labor.  (Also see Australia, far from migrants and with a $15 minimum wage.)  Good schools, humane prisons, good governments, often good fiscal balance, low poverty rates, long lives.  The same social problems *don’t* keep recurring over and over — at least, not to the same degree.  Liberals “look to Europe” for a reason.

    • Damien S.

      This question also assumes poor needing a tithe for support.  My first answer was in terms of a universal basic income.  If we focus on supporting those who need support, then the answer is obviously variable based on the employment and compensation rates: a booming economy needs little welfare (and the reverse of that is the real cause of deficits under Obama, not reckless new spending.)  Instead of a tithe, one might first focus on making sure people can work for their living.  In an agricultural society, that means land reform and a tax rate less than “as much as you can take without thepeasants starving” and those taxes being used for public purposes rather than elite luxury.  In a modern society it’s less simple, though free education (human capital) helps, as might citizen grants at coming of age. Government job guarantees could be a useful backstop.  Keynesianism was meant to keep the need for welfare low by keeping employment high via countercyclical measures, but then our accepted macroecon regressed to pre-Depression barbarism.

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