Comments on: Jason Brennan Did Not Like Gary Chartier’s Book http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/ Free Markets and Social Justice Mon, 22 Jan 2018 06:41:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.2 By: matt b http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27246 Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:57:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27246 Well this has been a very good conversation and you’re absolutely right: state was not the right word. An anarchist order (I know you guys will appreciate that one since you keep reminding us anarchy does not, by definition, mean disastrous chaos).

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By: shemsky http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27242 Sat, 16 Mar 2013 01:35:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27242 Well, I would volunteer to fight against Hitler, but I wouldn’t hold a gun to someone else and force them to fight, because I believe that that would be wrong.Doing that would make me into an aggressor. I do believe that the anarchist societies would organize volunteer armies to fight Hitler, because it would be in their best interests to do so, before Hitler increased his power and came after them. Also because anarchists are just as compassionate as anyone else. We don’t like to see people suffering under oppression any more than other people do. I wouldn’t use the term anarchist state, because I see a state as an institution that compels individuals to support it and associate with it. Anarchist societies would rely on voluntary association and support to sustain them.

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By: matt b http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27239 Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:59:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27239 You should be. This is a family blog haha. No man no problem I didn’t take it personally I just felt I was maybe not explaining myself well leading you to be annoyed. I actually don’t have any objection to anarchism in theory. If an anarchist society could realize my principles of justice I certainly wouldn’t say “But I miss the government and the elections where we get to see two old white men tell us their (anything but) beautiful visions.” I actually think your Holocaust point is quite serious and powerful. But let me turn the tables a bit: if the rest of the world except for Germany was anarchist would the anarchist states have assembled together to defeat Hitler? I actually think this is an unexplored area: the foreign policy of a libertarian anarchist state.

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By: Aeon Skoble http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27207 Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:27:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27207 It’s not just that these things might be done without the state – the state makes all these things _worse_.

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By: shemsky http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27204 Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:05:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27204 Sorry for the bullshit comment, Matt. I’ll try to contain myself. But, being able to see for own own eyes what compulsory obedience to the state has brought in terms of human suffering (would Hitler have been able to pull off the Holocaust without having the means to compel the German citizenry to support him?), I don’t see how anyone could continue to believe that compulsory obedience to the state is the .best way to order society. If we have a duty to obey the state, then someone has to decide where that duty begins and where it ends. Who has the right to decide for me and for you?

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By: matt b http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27197 Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:57:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27197 I always fear arguments are going in an ugly direction when people throw out the rhetorical hand grenade of bullshit so let me cool it down by saying I don’t think people advocating anarchist laissez-faire are wrong to wish for a world in which everything can be accomplished without coercion. As I said, voluntary is better but if my choice was between 100 percent voluntary and mass misery and 80 percent voluntary with far better results in terms of hapiness, well being, safety, and security well… It is possible, maybe not likely, but possible that an anarchist society would lead to far more rape and murder and theft if criminal gangs became empowered absent a central authority with monopoly power. If that materialized, IF, no morally sane anarchist would say “I still think this is better.” Right?

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By: shemsky http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27194 Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:11:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27194 How could allowing individuals to associate with whom they choose and allowing individuals to follow their own conscience cause 10 percent of people to be constantly raped or be the cause of 10 percent of people starving? That’s absurd. But forcing individuals to associate with people they don’t want to associate with and forcing individuals to go against their conscience has been the main cause of some pretty terrible things that have happened in various societies around the world. None of the major atrocities that happened during the 20th century would have happened if people, as individuals, had had the freedom to tell their governments that they were refusing to participate in all the killing and torturing. The institution of slavery would not have been able to sustain itself without the state having the power to compel individuals to obey the laws that upheld it. If laissez-faire produced those things? That’s bullshit.

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By: matt b http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27189 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:40:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27189 Oh it’s different depending on who you talk to. I’m just saying that everybody believes that some things are not right and should not be allowed, not just for themselves but for everyone. So pretty much everyone says it’s wrong to cheat on your wife but pretty much everyone also says it would be wrong to use force to prevent you from doing so. But virtually no one says “It would be wrong for me to rape your wife but I’m not going to force that view onto other people who might like to do so.” So everyone has some things that they believe we are justified in demanding people comply with no matter how wrong they think we are. I guess what I’m saying to you is that I believe that a system in which 10 percent of people are starving through no fault of their own is just as clearly wrong as a system where 10 percent of people are constantly raped and no one does anything about it. Note that I didn’t say equally wrong but clearly wrong. So if that’s what total laissez-faire produced I would be against total laissez-faire and would defend some coercive redistributive structure assuming it was the only way to end the 10 percent starving reality.

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By: shemsky http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27184 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:43:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27184 And what are the X, Y, and Z that we all agree is (not) right, Matt? What point are you talking about? I see a very few things that we all agree are wrong. And those very few things can be prosecuted without a coercive monopoly institution like the state, because virtually everyone agrees that they are wrong.

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By: matt b http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/03/jason-brennan-did-not-like-gary-chartiers-book/#comment-27182 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 16:17:00 +0000 http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/?p=5183#comment-27182 I understand your criticism but it applies to any conceivable system. If we had an anarcho-capitalist society and I rejected the view that it was just for there to be 100 percent absolute property rights and stole a life saving drug for my poor friend I would be punished. I don’t think private Supreme Court Chief Justice Walter Block would be real considerate of his situation and say “Oh you came up with a different decision of what was just. I undestand.” At some point, we all say “X, Y, and Z are right” and the system will be structured around X, Y, and Z.

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