Here is a thought experiment.  It’s intended especially for libertarians, and even more so for natural rights libertarians of the Lockean/Nozickian/Rothbardian sort.  But the rest of you should feel free to play along at home.

Suppose a genie gives you the power to snap your fingers and instantly implement your preferred theory of political justice. 

-          By “theory of political justice” I mean, very roughly, your theory about the basic moral constraints that govern what states (or, if you prefer, the “basic structure of society”) ought to do or refrain from doing – whether and to what extent taxation is permissible, whether some form of social safety net is mandatory, whether the government can prohibit or regulate food and drugs, and so on. 

-          By “implement” I mean that the relevant agents of the government (or other institutions within the basic structure) will make reasonable efforts to put your theory into practice.  Human nature will not change, and so we can still expect some “normal” amount of corruption, disobedience, and so on.

You, of course, believe that your theory of justice is correct.  You also believe (correctly) that most other people do not. 

Does the fact that others disagree give you any moral reason not to use the power you’ve been given – beyond reasons of a merely pragmatic sort?

One way of thinking about this question is to see it as a question about legitimacy, not justice.  Up until relatively recently, it was common for political philosophers not to draw a distinction between these concepts.  John Rawls’ 1971 book, A Theory of Justice, for instance, was simply about justice: about the moral principles that he thought should govern the basic structure of society.  After writing that book, however, Rawls realized that … surprise!  Not everyone agreed with him.  Other people had their own theories of justice, and not simply because they were stupid or malicious.  Justice, it seems, is something about which reasonable people can disagree, and will likely to continue to disagree for the foreseeable future.

And that gives rise to the problem of legitimacy: how can any particular principles of justice be imposed on citizens who reasonably believe those principles to be incorrect?  The answer to this question was the subject of Rawls’ 1993 book, Political Liberalism.  Rawls’ argument in this book is far too sophisticated and complex to accurately convey in a short blog post.  See here for a very good summary.  But the essence of his solution to the problem of political legitimacy was that political power could be legitimate by being based on what he called a political conception of justice.  And what makes a conception of justice political is that it is based, not on any particular philosophical theory about the nature of justice or the good life, but on the ideas common to a society’s public political culture – ideas that different persons with their different philosophical and religious worldviews could converge in endorsing.

There’s a lot more to say about Rawls’ approach to the issue of legitimacy, of course.  But rather than diving into that here, I just want to draw a few connections and pose some questions for us to think about.

First, taking the issue of legitimacy seriously gives us another very important reason to look for what Danny earlier described as overlapping consensus arguments.  Those arguments are nice not just because they give us a rhetorical tool to persuade people who do not share our fundamental moral commitments.  They are arguably necessary if we seek to establish the moral legitimacy of our proposals in a world of reasonable evaluative diversity.

Second, an obvious worry about Rawls’ strategy is that, given the extreme diversity of people’s worldviews and theories of justice, we will not be able to find any principles on which we can all converge.  Rawls tries to avoid this problem by insisting that we need only consider those views that are “reasonable.”  But the meaning of this term is notoriously unclear, and we might very well worry that Rawls achieves what consensus he does only by ruling out far too many competing views as “unreasonable.”  Interested readers should look at the work of Gerald Gaus, especially his newest opus, The Order of Public Reason.  Gaus shares many of Rawls’ views about reasonable evaluative diversity and public justification, but is concerned that Rawls fails to take real-world diversity seriously enough.  If he were to do so, Gaus argues, many fewer policies would pass the justificatory hurdle and the resulting state would look much more like a classical liberal one than anything Rawls ever envisioned.  (For shorter bite-sized presentations of this view, take a look at this paper or this one.)

Third, it’s worth thinking about the extent to which this might be a special problem for libertarians.  Libertarianism, as Loren Lomasky noted in his “Libertarianism as if (the Other 99% of) People Mattered,” is a view that makes very strong claims that most people think are flat-out wrong.  If this is true, what relevance does it have?  Does it show that libertarianism is unsuitable as a public morality? Isn’t there something anti-individualistic about imposing libertarian institutions by force on a population that reasonably believes them to be profoundly immoral?

Finally, might it be an even more pressing problem for bleeding heart libertarians?  If legitimacy requires justifying policies to everyone, including the poor, might this affect the kind of libertarianism that can be justified?  Might the only kind of libertarianism that can be universally justified be one that includes some form of government provided safety net?  Perhaps it’s no coincidence that the two libertarians who are most notable for pursuing this kind of approach – Loren Lomasky (in his Persons, Rights, and the Moral Community) and Gerald Gaus (in the works referred to above) endorse such a deviation from strict laissez faire?

 

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  • Aeon J. Skoble

    “Does the fact that others disagree give you any moral reason not to use the power you’ve been given – beyond reasons of a merely pragmatic sort?”

    Ok, I’ll play: no. If I come upon (big) Bob beating up on (little) Tom, and intervene, forcing Bob to stop hitting Tom, it’s completely irrelevant to whether I’m right to do so that Bob doesn’t think so. Bob has no right to be beating up Tom, so I am not violating Bob’s rights by intervening, and while I’d like it if Bob could see the legitimacy of my action, its rightness does not depend on that. So too with your example. There is no such thing as a right to violate rights, so if your magical genie enabled me to put a stop to all rights violations, no one would have standing to complain, as no one’s rights would be violated by my use of the genie. This: “If legitimacy requires justifying policies to everyone” is too strong a standard — you can’t justify child-porn laws to pedophiles, you can’t justify the 13th amendment to slave-holders. And you don’t need to.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/6p0147e2f357f9970b Matt Zwolinski

    @Aeon: “There is no such thing as a right to violate rights”

    Maybe. But the problem is that there is no account of what rights we have that is not subject to reasonable disagreement. Of course, there probably isn’t any reasonable disagreement about the claim that Bob is violating Tom’s rights in your example. But once we move beyond uncontroversial cases of sheer physical aggression, things get considerably more controversial.

    And the question is whether that reasonable disagreement has any relevance for political morality. The question is not whether it’s ok for you to stop others from violating people’s rights, it is whether it’s ok for you to stop others from violating what you think are other people’s rights, even though others reasonably disagree.

  • K.V.

    @Aeon: You’re drawing intuitions about whether disagreement matters from contexts *where there is no disagreement*. That is suspicious. Try a case where we reasonably disagree, like healthcare policy. Then see if your intuitions don’t change.

  • http://elidourado.com/ Eli

    Yes, it’s wrong to control people politically, even if I’m the one (or my team is the one) doing the controlling (though I think of this not so much in terms of natural rights but in terms of virtue). My libertarianism is increasingly taking apolitical forms. One manifestation is that I’ve been thinking about technologies that constrain the state: seasteading, cryptography, 3d printing, mesh networks, etc. Another manifestation is that I’m taking theories of non-resistance more seriously.

  • Aeon J. Skoble

    “the problem is that there is no account of what rights we have that is not subject to reasonable disagreement.” Depends on what you mean by “reasonable disagreement” – compossibility establishes a set of logically consistent rights, so disagreeing about that strikes me as unreasonable. Negative liberty rights are compossible in this sense; I can’t think of any positive rights for which that’s true.
    “The question is not whether it’s ok for you to stop others from violating people’s rights, it is whether it’s ok for you to stop others from violating what you think are other people’s rights, even though others reasonably disagree.”
    I am denying that it’s reasonable to disagree that violating someone’s liberty is bad.
    @K.V.-there’s only the appearance of reasonable disagreement on health care policy because the wider context of that debate presupposes the legitimacy of positive natural rights, which I deny. Positive rights can only be legitimate (in the senses of meeting the compossibility condition) if they don’t violate negative rights, and that only happens if they arise consensually.

  • Dan Kervick

    Does the fact that others disagree give you any moral reason not to use the power you’ve been given – beyond reasons of a merely pragmatic sort?

    I would say yes, all though its only one moral reason among others, and so could be overridden. If others find a particular political order deeply offensive or unpleasant, then compelling them to live under it harms them to some degree.

    However, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t work very hard to change their minds. Most of my own political energies are devoted to trying to talk people into accepting things they don’t currently accept.

  • K.V.

    @Aeon: A disagreement is only reasonable if all parties affirm your (to them) esoteric and sectarian philosophical doctrine (a doctrine I partly agree with, by the way)?

  • http://profile.typepad.com/theotherchuckd TheOtherChuckD

    I think that Rawls is right that any concept of rights has to be legitimated through comprimise in a system that citizens can accept as legitimate.

    I think many libertarians have a problem with this because there is a real anti-democratic (small-d) current in libertarianism that deserves hashing out a little more.

    If we accept that taxation, even the small amount required for a minarchist state, is allowed, we need institutions that set that rate and figure out what it pays for.

    What if the minarchist polity decides they want to build a stadium to keep the local football team from leaving? It could be constitutionally prohibited, but constitutions can be amended. If not, you lose consent of the governed and your minarchist state is using its night watchmen to beat people into enjoying their unfettered freedom.

    With taxes, we also implicitly acknowledge that the right to property is not sacrosanct in all cases, which means there must be political discussion on if there are limits and if so, what they are. When do taxes become confiscatory? That’s a political question and reasonable people can disagree. Even minarchists don’t have a magic number.

    And if we have barebones structures in place to protect private property, we must also define what violates property rights. Reasonable people would agree that muggings and arson fit the description, but dumping chemicals into a river I use for drinking water (and have the rights to) also violates my property rights. What about noise violations? Air pollution? Politics has to decide.

    My point is that absolute or near-absolute rights to property and free exchange always bump up against the popular will. As long as the libertarian discussion is largely limited to absolute rights, libertarians have a choice: strive to be a vanguard class who understand the One True Economics no matter what the ill-informed masses think (sound familiar?) or 1% of the population that either haggles over policy outcomes like everyone else or just gets ignored.

  • Aeon J. Skoble

    What defines it as reasonable isn’t that it’s mine, but that it’s logically consistent etc. I think it’s unreasonable to insist on a contradictory set of principles even after it’s been shown to be contradictory. So when I hear people say “yes, I believe everyone has equal rights” and then in the next breath say that Smith’s rights trump Jones’ rights, I don’t feel underconfident in thinking that’s unreasonable. Exposing contradictions and inconsistencies is how (well, one way) to figure out which theories are good and which are bad.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/theotherchuckd TheOtherChuckD

    And I think that the world would be a better place if that 1% starts haggling. That’s what the various fusionist dalliances over the years have been about.

    However, any libertarian coalition building or political participation requires accepting the idea that people should be allowed to vote for a certain amount of dumb stuff.

  • http://aaronmclin.blogspot.com/ Aaron

    Try a case where we reasonably disagree, like healthcare policy.

    But isn’t that the point? For partisans and ideologues there are no cases where people can reasonably disagree, because how can any intelligent and well-meaning person possibly have any problem with protecting other people’s unalienable rights?

    It seems that the whole point that Mr. Zwolinski was attempting to make, and that Aeon helped bring into stark contrast, is that Rawls and others realized that, taken as a whole, Justice is neither objective nor self-evident. Therefore, forcing any one vision of justice on others, regardless of how much you believe in it, can been seen as unjust itself.

    The realization that people who disagree with you are not “stupid or malicious” is really simply the realization that one has a responsibility to be drive acceptance, rather than holding that others have a responsibility to accept, and that the root of tyranny lies in making the determination that one is justified in forcing others to do what is best for them, since they lack the intelligence and/or good will to do it for themselves. (They must, otherwise they’d have already taken the objective and self-evident steps you propose to enforce upon them.)

    The application of this to Libertarianism seems to be simply an understanding of the central hypocrisy behind attempting to coerce people into freedom.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/theotherchuckd TheOtherChuckD

    @aaron:

    Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

  • John

    That’s a very tough question Matt. I’m not entirely sure what I would do if that were a reality for me. I suspect I would either abstain from taking the power or attempt to make minor changes that set others on the path — essentially putting the invisible hand into the political setting if possible.

    I suppose that if I did believe that my solutions were the just and good society that provided the best benefit to all then, as a corollary to Jason’s voting ethic I might feel compelled to exercise that power.

    It’s not clear that I can implement the change with without imposing a harm on at least some in society who might be properly be considered innocent “in act” but who were beneficiaries of the prior system. So not only is there the issue of overriding other’s beliefs but also some very tangible harm that occurs.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/andrewlevine Andrewlevine

    Clearly the uneven power dynamic that exists here — I get to control the body politic because I’m the lucky one who found the genie, while everyone else who has a different opinion about what constitutes justice and fairness can stuff it — makes mincemeat out of the idea that such a power could be exercised justly by myself or any one individual, or even a small group of individuals. I’d have a mass popular uprising on my hands by dinnertime. Matt seems to agree with this, and it sounds like most of the commenters do too.

    The real question is, how big a group would you need in order to use the genie’s abilities in a way that establishes the group’s legitimacy? Probably far too large a group than would be able to agree on one particular regime that’s specific down to the last cent in the budget. So large that you might not even need the genie, just old-fashioned coalition-building non-magical politics.

  • Aeon J. Skoble

    @Aaron-I wouldn’t say that justice is self-evident, but it is objective – even Rawls says that. This: “forcing any one vision of justice on others, regardless of how much you believe in it, can been seen as unjust itself” overstates the case – as in my Bob and Tom example, it is not unjust for me to “force my vision of justice” (viz., it’s wrong to beat people up) on Bob. Since Bob has no right to beat up Tom, I am not violating Bob’s rights by preventing him from beating up Tom. I do not treat Bob unjustly.
    For the record, I do _not_ think that everyone who disagrees with me is stupid or malicious. That’s a straw man. Obviously I think people who disagree with me are mistaken- otherwise I would think something other than what I think. But that doesn’t mean they are stupid or malicious. (Look, Matt asked a weirdly countefactual question about a magic genie, presumably to tease out our views on legtimacy and public reason. I do realize that in the real world, we have to make arguments and build consensus and so on.)

  • http://www.psychopolitik.com b-psycho

    @ChuckD: The result of that haggling seems to have been less a matter of progress for all involved, more like “you drop your inconvenient-to-the-status-quo principles, and we’ll pretend to be backing you when we push stuff we wanted anyway”.

    There’s a reason that, despite all of the philosophical arguments we have among ourselves, the popular interpretation of libertarianism is “pot-smoking Republican”: the alliance closest to political success nods towards taxes and deliberately ignores everything else.

  • Alex Habighorst

    The way I always read into this ‘Public Reason’ as a ‘Lockean/Nozickian/Rothbardian’ libertarian is that of basically thinking that Rawls’ thinking does not get him as far as it thinks he does. If restrictions in the form of public discourse should be had, as a libertarian I take this to mean less should be decided in the political sphere as it would seem it could only end in a game to impose such a comprehensive doctrine.
    Moreover, since such libertarian ideas treat self-ownership as a starting point, giving up on one’s property would be a non-starter. If anything then, I suppose I would read this as furthering libertarianism to encourage society to exit the political realm, I suppose.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/theotherchuckd TheOtherChuckD

    @b-psycho:

    It’s true that we’re stuck with “pot-smoking Republican” for the time being. When parties haggle on multiple dimensions (not just on price like at a bazaar), you will inevitably prioritize one set of issues over another. When you’re a small minority no matter which major party you align with, you pick your battles.

    For decades, the money that comes into libertarian think tanks and magazines has come from donors and foundations that care about taxes and business regulations more than drugs and civil liberties.

    You question whether this has resulted in success. Well, taxes as a percentage of GDP are at their lowest levels in the postwar era. If you value incremental advancement toward a goal, you’ve got it.

    This leaves a lot of libertarians (and exclusively civil libertarians like me) feeling unsatisfied with how right-libertarian fusionism worked out. Some simply believe that taxation is theft – they have written themselves out of mainstream conversation (see Rawls, above). Others would prefer left-fusionism focused on curbing police powers.

    So people are talking about new coalitions. A “liberaltarian” alliance may result in limited drug legalization or curbs on the surveillance state, but many people will inevitably be dissapointed.

    Rigid ideologies fail when you need the consent of the governed. Such is politics.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/andrewlevine Andrewlevine

    If anything then, I suppose I would read this as furthering libertarianism to encourage society to exit the political realm, I suppose.

    How can anyone succeed in “encouraging society to exit the political realm”? How many people would understand what that really means? (I know I don’t). Does it somehow mean ending disagreement over core principles? Moreover, how can you achieve it without Matt’s genie?

  • Alex Habighorst

    Arguing along strict libertarian lines, I would imagine it would involve a gradual turn away from state-sponsored saftey nets, redistribution policies, taxation etc. towards voluntary charity as well as non-governmental organizations.
    It would be similar to the argument Herbert Spencer put forth in his ‘Right to Ignore the State’ “As a corollary to the proposition that all institutions must be subordinated to the law of equal freedom, we cannot choose but admit the right of the citizen to adopt a condition of voluntary outlawry. If every man has freedom to do all that he wills, provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man, then he is free to drop connection with the state — to relinquish its protection, and to refuse paying toward its support. It is self-evident that in so behaving he in no way trenches upon the liberty of others; for his position is a passive one; and whilst passive he cannot become an aggressor. It is equally self-evident that he cannot be compelled to continue one of a political corporation, without a breach of the moral law, seeing that citizenship involves payment of taxes; and the taking away of a man’s property against his will, is an infringement of his rights. Government being simply an agent employed in common by a number of individuals to secure to them certain advantages, the very nature of the connection implies that it is for each to say whether he will employ such an agent or not. If any one of them determines to ignore this mutual-safety confederation, nothing can be said except that he loses all claim to its good offices, and exposes himself to the danger of maltreatment — a thing he is quite at liberty to do if he likes. He cannot be coerced into political combination without a breach of the law of equal freedom; he can withdraw from it without committing any such breach; and he has therefore a right so to withdraw.”

    Moreover, in this thought experiment I do not see how other systems then libertarians will surmount this angle. For instance if Rawls’ system is in place how would he end disagreement with people who would flat out say to him that we are not going to give up this amount of money or property to redistribute towards this or that plan.

  • http://aaronmclin.blogspot.com/ Aaron

    Since Bob has no right to beat up Tom,[...]

    Why not?

    No, I’m not trolling. I’m simply pointing out that a seemingly obvious statement is actually based on a series of assumptions. And that for someone who doesn’t make those same assumptions, the statement might not be true.

    But more to the point, so what? What does Bob beating up Tom have to do with the right to enforce your theory of justice upon all of the people who are not Bob? Unless your theory says, in its entirety, “no unlawful beatings,” there are likely going to be situations (that the example of Bob and Tom does not address) in which people will find the imposition of your theory of justice to be worse than the injustice it combats.

    Given that “justice” does not exist in any of the physical sciences that I am aware of, I don’t think of it as objective. Something may be broadly agreed upon, but that’s different than objective. In other words, when we speak of a concept like justice being objective, we mean something somewhat different than we do when we speak of a light-year being objective. “Just” is objective in more the way that we consider “tall” or “short” to be objective.

    As for bringing up “stupid and malicious,” I did that not because I suspect that you would apply those labels to those who disagree with you, Aeon, but because they are raised in the orginal article. Just tying everything together…

  • http://aaronmclin.blogspot.com/ Aaron

    Obviously I think people who disagree with me are mistaken- otherwise I would think something other than what I think.

    Ah… For me, that’s not obvious. If you are I are having a discussion about an objective point, and we disagree, there are three options.

    1) You’re right, I’m mistaken.
    2) I’m right, you’re mistaken.
    3) We’re both mistaken.

    While I like to think that it would be #2, I’m very wary of betting on that, unless my information is ironclad and at my fingertips.

    I don’t think what I think because it’s correct – I think what I think because that’s where the information that I have (and the filters through which I obtained/processed it) leads me. And it’s rare when I can be absolutely certain that it hasn’t lead me astray.

    Granted, I’ve had people use that as a weapon against me more than once, taking my willingness to concede the possibility of error as proof of their correctness. But such is life.

  • http://blog.hecker.org/ Frank Hecker

    @Eli: Re your libertarianism “increasingly taking apolitical forms” (including seasteading, etc.) I don’t believe it’s possible to entirely escape politics or (as in the discussion here) questions of legitimacy, even in contexts where there is no coercion.

    For example, free and open source software development projects are voluntary associations in pursuit of a collective goal. Such projects also have lots of cases where decisions need to be made that are binding on those participating in the project and/or using their products, and lots of politics around such decisions. (I can testify from personal experience here.)

    People are certainly free to disregard such decisions and either leave or “fork” the project by founding a competing project using the same code, but excessive forking runs the risk of reducing the effectiveness of the collective effort. So in practice the projects that survive and flourish tend to be those that have evolved a fairly robust concept of what counts as legitimate and just authority within the context of the project.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/andrewlevine Andrewlevine

    Alex, how would any of that occurring eliminate politics from society? Wouldn’t it just shift the politics away from legislative houses and into/among whatever voluntary organizations within society end up thriving and wielding power?

    Additionally, why do you feel that a substantial number people would ever “opt out” of government, given that so many have come to see government as enforcing and/or granting their rights?

  • http://naturalrightslibertarian.com Mark D. Friedman

    Starting with the premise (as I do) that there is an objective morality, and if exisitng societal institutions conflict with this morality, then (it seems to me) that I am justified in implementing policies that shift these institutions into line with the dictates of justice. However, morality itself may well constrain what is right to implement. If I see a person shoplifting a candy bar from my store, it would obviously be wrong to shoot him to prevent the theft. By the same token, if the public authorities have to jail or otherwise harshly penalize people to realize a morally pristine society, the evil of this coercion might itself count as a good reason for limiting what we are willing to do to bring about the perfectly just society.

  • Aeon J. Skoble

    Aaron, I’m really not getting your 12:56 point. I can think both (a) for each individual thought x that I have, x is true, and (b)of the totality of all my thouhts, some are surely false. Simple intellectual humility commands (b), but (a) is dictated by logic. For if I thought of any belief x that it wasn’t true, I wouldn’t have that belief, but its opposite. One reason for engaging in philosophical discussion is so that I can discover which of my views is true and which is false. While I remain open to the possibility that I could be wrong about any of my views, the ones that are the result of years of philosophical testing will be ones that I think I can defend, and the burden of proof will be on others to show why they’re incorrect. So, e.g., I’m fairly well convinced that it’s wrong for Bob to beat up on Tom (or, to make it starker, to rape Tina). If someone wants to make the claim that I’m question-begging or whatever, the burden of proof will be on him or her to show me why I’m mistaken to think that.
    Also: “Given that “justice” does not exist in any of the physical sciences that I am aware of, I don’t think of it as objective” I would deny that premise. I’m a eudaimonist, and the relevant model of teleology is biocentric.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/andrewlevine Andrewlevine

    I can think both (a) for each individual thought x that I have, x is true, and (b)of the totality of all my thouhts, some are surely false. Simple intellectual humility commands (b), but (a) is dictated by logic. For if I thought of any belief x that it wasn’t true, I wouldn’t have that belief, but its opposite.

    This seems to presuppose that you know which of your beliefs you believe to be true are really true, and which in fact aren’t. I don’t think there’s much intellectual humility in that at all.

    You seem to be entirely excluding Aaron’s possibility 1) when it comes to objectively factual matters (i.e. “You’re right, I’m mistaken”). If something is objectively true, why should the other individual be required to prove that it is true? To satisfy you and get you to agree, maybe. But if she can’t prove it to your satisfaction, or doesn’t have in interest in doing so, does it change the fact that there is something you believe is true that isn’t?

    And so it follows, that if some other people might correctly believe some things that are relevant towards the concept of “enforcing justice” which you don’t agree with (even if this is due to lack of effort on their part), then you might want to reconsider the viewpoint that there’s an optimally fair and finite set of individual rights which some very smart person will discover someday, which justifies universal adoption against the will of others.

  • http://elidourado.com/ Eli

    Frank Hecker, I agree that sometimes decisions need to be made that are binding on groups, subject to people’s choices to leave the group. That’s not really what I object to. I object to treating people as things to be dealt with expediently. We are all familiar in our personal relationships with people who are controlling in this way, and it causes breaches in those relationships. Similarly, I think that if we want to have authentic community we need to be careful not to impose our wills on others without respecting them as persons.

  • http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html Mike Huben

    This is a problem that was solved by liberalism centuries ago.

    Consider instead that the genie offered to allow you to set whatever prices you wanted to whatever you wanted. As libertarians, you should be rightfully shocked at the notion that prices should be controlled like that. Instead, you would aver, competitive markets should be created so that prices could be set by supply and demand despite all sorts of conflicting valuations. There is no perfection in those prices, but they are a form of optimized solution to problems of allocation in economic commons. And that’s exactly what liberals espoused two centuries or more ago.

    Likewise, two centuries ago, liberals set up democratic representative constitutional governments to solve the same sort of problem for political justice in social commons. Voting, horse trading, and debate result in laws despite all sorts of conflicting preferences. There is no perfection in those laws, but they are a form of optimized solution to problems of usage of social commons.

    If you are looking for some sort of optimal solution, the genie already granted that wish two centuries ago in the USA. How is it optimal? The same way a price system is optimal: it tracks the values of the people and moves towards satisfying them. Other solutions would have all the optimality of a stopped clock, being right twice a day.

    If you are not interested in optimal solutions, but rather in your ideology (communist or libertarian), many fewer people will be satisfied with your imposed solution.

  • http://whyiamnot.wordpess.com Salem

    Does it matter how the genie works? Suppose he doesn’t use magic, but is simply very persuasive. Is it be wrong to use argument and rhetoric to advance your preferred theory of political justice?

  • http://blog.hecker.org/ Frank Hecker

    @Eli: “…we need to be careful not to impose our wills on others without respecting them as persons.” Agree completely. I was just making the same point that Andrewlevine made in response to Alex Habighorst’s comment about “encouraging society to exit the political realm”, namely that politics would still be engaged in, and questions of legitimacy would still be salient, even under conditions of full voluntary association.

  • http://aaronmclin.blogspot.com/ Aaron

    Why does everyone fall back on things like theft or assault when speaking of these things?

    Let’s use the following example instead – I’ve decided that ALL pornography (everything that meets MY definition of the term) is harmful to the people who perform in it, and damages the sexuality of people who consume it – and I even have studies to back me up. So when Mr. Zwolinski’s theory of political justice genie comes to me, I snap my fingers, and hey presto, pornography is illegal. Period. Illegal to produce (harms others), illegal to perform in (harms self), illegal to distribute (abets harm to others) illegal to possess and consume (harms self).

    So… have I done the right thing? I know that not everyone is going to agree with me, since reasonable people can disagree, and I know that I’m going to create some hardships in people who relied on the industry for their income, who no find their livelihoods criminalized. It’s a shame, but I’m willing to force them into temporary poverty until they find the better jobs they should have been in all along. (And if they don’t, that’s their problem, not mine.)

    I also know there are studies that disagree with (or, depending on your point of view, debunk) the studies I’m relying on. As far as I’m concerned, they’re all disinformation that some people will use to support bad behavior as an act of deliberate evil, and some stupid people will be convinced by false arguments. Should I outlaw that, too?

    Does the strength of my conviction justify my actions, regardless of how many people agree with me, or do I need a certain percentage of the population to support me before I can call what I have done legitimate?

  • http://aaronmclin.blogspot.com/ Aaron

    Thanks, Andrew. Well put.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/andrewlevine Andrewlevine

    Salem:
    Does it matter how the genie works? Suppose he doesn’t use magic, but is simply very persuasive. Is it wrong to use argument and rhetoric to advance your preferred theory of political justice?

    Let me borrow Aaron’s very good illustrative example, and say that I want to outlaw the production, distribution, and consumption of pornography. How does the genie employ argument and rhetoric to convince those who find themselves out of work (and probably newly united in stubborn opposition to me) that I have their best interests at heart? How does he persuade millions of outraged consumers that this is all for their own good? If no suitably persuasive case can be made, what then?

  • http://profile.typepad.com/kowaltim Tim Kowal

    It is morally wrong to use the genie to achieve your personal theory of political justice.

    I see this thought experiment as simply asking which is to be preferred: substantive justice, or procedural justice? If you favor substantive justice, you will use the genie without apology, knowing that justice in outcomes is the goal, and that procedural irregularities are either justified or irrelevant.

    If you favor procedural justice, however, you will resist using the genie, confident in the belief that guaranteeing a just process is the only kind of justice man is capable of: Abusing process or otherwise employing sham, or artifice, or genies to achieve some predetermined outcome is the very definition of evil as it puts one man over another.

    The question of imposing a “theory of political justice” might require a slightly different analysis, but I think it comes to the same conclusion: it would be wrong to impose on others a predetermined “outcome” about what sorts of political “procedures” we will use.

  • Aeon J. Skoble

    @Aaron-You’d be wrong to use the genie to ban pornography, not because it would have a hard time persuading everyone that it’s for their own good, but because this isn’t rights-violative activity. It’s not the strength of your convictions that would make it ok to use the genie, it’s your actually protecting liberty, which in this example you’re not doing.
    @Andrewlevine-”This seems to presuppose that you know which of your beliefs you believe to be true are really true, and which in fact aren’t. I don’t think there’s much intellectual humility in that at all.”
    No, I don’t presuppose that at all. I explicitly said I don’t know which of my beliefs are true. I said that each of my beliefs is something I believe to be true, which I think is actually a tautology, but that at the same time I realize that I’m likely mistaken about some of them. The problem is that I don’t know which ones are false. If I knew which of my beliefs were false, I’d stop believing them. That’s what happens when, in a discussion, one says “oh wait, you’re right.”

  • Nathan P.

    I would feel that usage of the genie was morally obligatory for certain efforts, morally permissible (or if you will, justifiable) for others, and morally impermissible for still others. This judgement isn’t based on what I believe. There are things I believe that would nevertheless be morally impermissible to magically force society into complying with.

    An evaluation of ethics leads to the three categories (mandatory, permissible, forbidden) but humility would probably result in my making very few ‘permissible’ changes.

    Legitimacy is relevant to some matters and irrelevant to others. In a very real sense we all must act as our conscience dictates. To do otherwise is a betrayal of the self. Sometimes this means that we are ethically obligated to do something that indeed there exists reasonable cause to believe is the wrong thing, simply because we believe it to be right. Not because of belief, but because if ethics is to be meaningful it must be constrained to human-possible heuristics. Only when we have broken the boundaries of crude human potential does it make sense to speak of ethics which transcend what humans can hold in their mind about a given situation at a given time.

    Anyone who has the genie has this problem staring them right in the face. And for my part, I would probably change medicine and healthcare law remarkably with the genie. In the cause of immortality and under my ethical strictures, these would be ethically obligatory… even though I’m aware that the actions would certainly be illegitimate and may even be wrong.

    It may be possible that there is someone who is so convinced that pornography is illegal that they’re in the same bind I am regarding medicine. I would consider such a person remarkable in rather disfavorable ways, as I’m not sold that any such person exists. I believe would-be pornography banners are engaged in social signalling rather than actual political advocacy. Yet when I (inevitably) excoriated them for unethical behaviour, it must be noted that I would be excoriating them for unethical behaviour according to my own ethics as I have developed them. I would also be declaring my belief that they have allowed their social signalling to trump their judgement, even though in the context of this thought experiment, we’ve acknowledged that no such thing occurred. (I can predict my own inaccurate behavior in certain counterfactuals!) I would not be declaring that I had access to the platonic ideal of ethics, nor would I be declaring that they must conform to that unknowable ideal of ethics. Their actions may have been correct under an analysis of the *processes of ethical consideration*.

    Similarly, many of the people who advocate for statism are acting ethically. They’re misinformed, but while it would be malfeasant for them to go *snap* and implement their entire platform, the things they believe in most may be not only permissible but (to them, in their position, with their limited resources in cognition and information) obligatory.

    Ethical reasoning is an imperfect shield against tragedy, and past a point, trying to make the shield better just results in all actions being declared unethical.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/andrewlevine Andrewlevine

    but because [pornography] isn’t rights-violative activity. It’s not the strength of your convictions that would make it ok to use the genie, it’s your actually protecting liberty, which in this example you’re not doing.

    Just so we’re clear then: It’s okay to impose the protection of your idea of liberty on people, even if this protection means getting rid of public services and other “positive rights” that they want to keep. Did I get that right?

    That’s what happens when, in a discussion, one says “oh wait, you’re right.”

    You can tell someone that they bear the burden of proof if they want to go to the trouble of convincing you that you’re wrong about something. But this does not mean they are responsible for convincing you of anything if they don’t want to. Yet you are saying that unless they can give you a good reason why you shouldn’t revoke what they regard as “positive” rights to which they are entitled, you’re justified in taking away those rights, telling them that they’re not valid rights and never really were.

    Did I get that right, too?

  • http://www.psychopolitik.com b-psycho

    @Mike: if enough people are supposedly being satisfied by the status-quo of allegedly representative government in the U.S., then how come when you go ask people most say they aren’t satisfied?

    Furthermore, why do so many usually refrain from voting? In a system where it’s assumed to reflect “the will of the people”, isn’t not voting a denial of legitimacy?

  • http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html Mike Huben

    b-psycho:

    After a compromise, nobody is satisfied. But it is still better than no solution.

    People vote when they are dissatisfied or threatened. When they are satisfied, they are complacent and don’t expend the effort.

  • Aeon J. Skoble

    @Andrewlevine-”Just so we’re clear then: It’s okay to impose the protection of your idea of liberty on people, even if this protection means getting rid of public services and other “positive rights” that they want to keep. Did I get that right?”

    Depends on whether those positive rights are rights to things the provision of which is consensual. The plantation owners in South Carolina were eventually deprived of services they thought they were entitled to, but they weren’t actually entitled to them, so depriving them of those services isn’t a bad thing – indeed, it was a good thing.

    “you are saying that unless they can give you a good reason why you shouldn’t revoke what they regard as “positive” rights to which they are entitled, you’re justified in taking away those rights, telling them that they’re not valid rights and never really were. Did I get that right, too?”

    I think so – my claim, call it C, is that non-consensual positive rights are illegitimate. They violate negative rights and so are part of a logically inconsistent set of claims. So the magic genie does no wrong by eliminating them, just as the 13th Amendment does no wrong. As a philosopher, I am willing to engage in debate on C, but my earlier point was that I am pretty well convinced of C, so the anti-C people will have to give me some pretty compelling arguments if I’m to give up C.

  • http://aaronmclin.blogspot.com/ Aaron

    You’d be wrong to use the genie to ban pornography, not because it would have a hard time persuading everyone that it’s for their own good, but because this isn’t rights-violative activity.

    If people have a right to be free from unnecessary harm, and pornography causes unnecessary harm (I have studies!) then isn’t pornography “rights-violative,” thus validating my use of the genie to criminalize pornography?

    And that’s the real crux of the issue – what rights do people have (and does it matter if they want them or not) and what constitutes a violation of those rights? It seems to me that the central point of the genie example is that it’s the inherent uncertainty of that question that precludes the use of the genie.

    Sure, we all have what we feel are good reasons to use the genie – things that we’re positive that all “right-thinking” people would go along with (perhaps to the point where we see disagreement with that as direct evidence of evil intent or poor cognitive skills), but in the end, these are all our opinions, and they are based on a set of assumptions that aren’t always as universal as we like to think of them, even if we’ve buttressed them with supporting “objective data.”

    Outside of pornography, abortion is a prime contested ground here. Does an unborn child have rights that abortion violates? There are plenty of people who say “yes” quite emphatically. And there are some people who say “no.” And there are a bunch of people who say “sorta.” (They would agree that the fetus has rights, but that some of the mother’s rights trump.) So which group gets the green light to wish their theory of political justice into implementation? What do we do when the questions aren’t so simple and direct?

  • http://whyiamnot.wordpess.com Salem

    We don’t need to worry about exactly what rhetorical arguments the genie would use – he’s really persuasive and brilliant, and I’m not. I’m assuming that the genie can’t change people’s underlying natures and interests, he can just get a quick fix to pass some laws/constitutional amendments/whatever.

    But if you think about that, the genie’s actions are no different from ordinary political organisation, just he’s really good at it. If you can’t use the genie at least some of the time, then the conclusion is that all politics is illegitimate. But worse – in our day-to-day lives we all act non-consensually to uphold or frustrate laws and impose norms on others. This argument is not a particular problem for libertarians – it is a kind of radical scepticism of all social interactions that is aimed equally at all human systems.

  • Miko

    Isn’t there something anti-individualistic about imposing libertarian institutions by force on a population that reasonably believes them to be profoundly immoral?

    Absolutely. This is a serious problem in any philosophy that simultaneously 1) describes itself as “libertarian” and 2) suggests that there is such a thing as a “libertarian institution.” However, since libertarianism is about opposing the hierarchical power of coercive institutions, libertarianism only meets one of these two conditions. So, libertarians don’t really need to worry about it.

    Andrewlevine:

    Wouldn’t it just shift the politics away from legislative houses and into/among whatever voluntary organizations within society end up thriving and wielding power?

    The way that a voluntary organization wields power is fundamentally different from the way that a coercive organization does, since the worst that a voluntary organization can do is to refuse to deal with you. Depending on how much power the institution has, that might be profoundly unpleasant, but only coercion is unpleasant enough to be described as “politics.”

  • Aeon J. Skoble

    @Miko-there’s an ambiguity in your use of “imposing” — by, say, forbidding slavery, it’s not obvious that I’m “imposing” an institution, I’m at most imposing the absennce of an institution. I don’t see how it’s unlibertarian abolish slavery – the fact that some people would prefer to hold slaves is completely irrelevant to whether the practice is bad or whether abolishing it is consistent with libertarianism. Perhaps this is a problem with the public-reason approach generally. Sounds like some folks who have been responding to Matt’s question couldn’t even use the genie to abolish slavery, let alone create libertopia.

  • http://jacobtlevy.blogspot.com Jacob T. Levy

    In my initial post, I wrote:

    “I see libertarianism– or market liberalism– as a position within the political world of the modern state, a party-idea about how the policies of the modern state should be shaped. I don’t see it as above or outside that political world– as a theory about what justice would loook like in the state of nature, or as a theory that on its own terms demands to be constitutionalized and made immune to further political contestation. It’s my position; I endorse it, I think it’s right, I wish modern states pursued far more libertarian policies than they do. But it’s a position within politics…”

    So count me in the anti-genie camp, for the expansive meaning Matt gave of “theory of political justice.”

  • http://ToddSeavey.com Todd Seavey

    I shouldn’t start a potentially-tangential argument with Jacob, so I’ll just ask one question and then butt out no matter what, but: isn’t a rather disutile, Jacob, to describe libertarianism as merely a party position within party politics, almost as if it’s got the same moral status as two groups fighting over which of their favorite taxpayer-supported sports gets a stadium? I mean, you’re not the sort (perhaps like a Walzer) who thinks politics is a fundamental element of our humanity that should never be dispensed with, are you? I mean, if the whole human race were set free, able to pursue their 7 billion agendas at last, would you say: “This is no fun — there’s no parliamentary debate going on!”?

    I’m simplifying, but that seems to me like prioritizing _political discourse_ over _life_, if you see what I mean, which is ultimately the (fairly nuanced, I hope) reason for me often sounding simultaneously anti-academic and anti-liberal-institutions. I _hope_ we want a free and happy human race, not per se “stuff for the politicians and political scientists to do.” And most of the human race has better things to do than politics (thank goodness).

    Or put another way: do you think there is a fundamental “need to do politics” that supersedes utility?

    (I ask this as a guy who still finds the genie creepy for somewhat Frodo-esque reasons, I should say. I’d need to know there was really some sort of eternal guarantee that no counter-genie would ever arise, etc., etc., and I’m sure you’re writing from similar — and, uh, admittedly more-realistic — concerns.)

  • http://jacobtlevy.blogspot.com Jacob T. Levy

    Well, I’m not the utilitarian you are, so that’s not my language. But in any case, I’m certainly not that kind of enthusiast for politics; it’s a foul business, not an intrinsic part of the good life.

    But I do take seriously the Waldron/ Christiano/ late Rawls arguments about respectful coexistence with people who disagree with us. I think that we have duties to other people about how we deploy our views about political justice, something like how we have duties to other people about how we deploy our ideas about theological truth. One can believe that one has the truth and still believe that others are reasonable in disagreeing or not seeing it, still believe that from a social point of view one’s own account of the truth is one account among many.

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  • Damien RS

    You live in 1850 USA, and the genie appears, so you’d have the option of abolishing slavery.  Or, today, of changing North Korea.  Is it wrong to use the genie?

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