Democracy

The Duty to Lie to Stupid Voters

I’m writing a paper for an edited anthology on political ethics. I haven’t started writing it yet; I’ve just written an abstract for their proposal. But the paper will defend the thesis that politicians may lie to stupid voters. Here’s some very first-pass thoughts about this.

*****

Politicians routinely lie to voters. Some such politicians act badly and should be held accountable for their lies. But might lying be obligatory or praiseworthy in some circumstances?

The duty to tell the truth is not unconditional. Rather, it’s a presumptive duty, one that can be trumped or overridden in certain circumstances, or one that might not apply in special circumstances. Consider the following case:

Murderer at the Door: You are hiding some of your friends in your basement, who are fleeing an ax murderer. The ax murderer appears at your front door and asks, “Excuse me, but by any chance, might you be hiding your friends in your basement? I’d like to murder them, if you don’t mind.”

Clearly you may lie in the murderer at the door case. (Despite what you may have heard, even Kant might agree to that.) You don’t owe the murderer the truth, and you don’t owe it to him to assist him in his evil conduct. Etc.

Now consider some variations:

The Evil Wizard: An evil wizard has misplaced his magic wand. You happen to know where it is. He says, “Hey, do you happen to know where my wand is? I need it to cast a magic spell that will curse the land with famine and disease.”

The Evil Wizard, Part II: An evil wizard has misplaced his magic wand. You happen to know where it is. He says, “Hey, do you happen to know where my wand is? I need it to cast a magic spell that will cause the economy to collapse, causing widespread pain and suffering.”

The Slightly Less Evil Wizard: An evil wizard has misplaced his magic wand. You happen to know where it is. He says, “Hey, do you happen to know where my wand is? I need it to cast a magic spell that will cause a number of stupid economic and political policies to be implemented, causing harm of various sorts to a great number of people.”

Lie, lie, lie!

The Sightly Less Evil Wizard Consortium: A group of evil wizards have magic wands. They plan to cast the “Implement bad policies that harm people” spell. However, they can’t remember what the words are. You can either tells them the magic word are “Thrak  burzum, thrak mokum, thrak ufum!”–the correct words to the spell that causes suffering–0r you can lie and tell them the magic words are “Gellon ned i gelir i chent gin ned i lelig”–which will cause happiness and joy, and also dupe the wizards into thinking they cast the evil spell.

Again, lying seems admirable, or, in fact, obligatory.

Now, suppose we replace the evil wizards consortium with voters, and rather than having magic spells, they have votes. Does anything change?

You might say, well, sure, obviously. After all, it’s permissible for voters to do as they please. But that claim doesn’t stand up to scrunity. Most citizens of most democratic countries have a moral obligation not to vote. Not only that, but there’s a good case to be made in favor of legally forbidding them from voting. (It also turns out one of the strongest objections to that claim fails, as I argue in my chapter in this book.)

Of course there are lots of objections that I’ll consider in the actual paper, but this is enough for now. My point here is just to say that if there is a duty not to lie to voters, it must be because voters are in some way entitled to act like murderers at the door or evil wizards, when murderers at the door and evil wizards are not. (And, not only that, but you are forbidden from stopping them from acting badly.)

UPDATE: In fact, I’m making the case against lying to voters harder than it seems. The problem is that the above thought experiments present voters as intentionally malicious. But while some voters are intentionally malicious, most aren’t. Instead, consider a final case:

The Well-Meaning but Stupid Wizard Consortium: A group of stupid but nice wizards want to cast the “Implement good policies that help people” spell. To cast this spell, they write the words to the spell on a scroll, and then need to scroll to be placed in the fires of Mount Doom. Being nice but stupid, the mistakenly write down the words “Thrak  burzum, thrak mokum, thrak ufum!” But these are actually the words to a spell that causes suffering. You could try to explain to them that these are the wrong words, but you know they’re too stupid to ever realize their mistake. They ask you to deliver the spell to Mount Doom. However, your have the opportunity to promise to deliver their spell, but then lie, and in fact switch out the spell with the correct words, which are “Gellon ned i gelir i chent gin ned i lelig.”

Lie, lie, lie!

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  • Steve Moffett

    So the consortium of evil wizards (aka the IRS) shows up at your door and says the following to you : “our magic wand will not function unless we take money from every citizen and sacrifice it to the gods so they will continue to power our magic wand and we can continue to rule over the people. We heard that you were paid several hundred dollars in cash last week for services rendered, and we want to tax it. But rest assured your funds are paying for a great cause.” Do you lie and say you received no such payment?

  • Jameson Graber

    This analogy strikes me as false because in the analogies, the wizards have actual control of something external. In democracies, voters have control only over who wins an election, not over policies. The analogy would only make sense if voters actually determined policies, which is not the case.

    While the general idea is provocative, and while I agree that voters have a responsibility not to vote in their ignorance, I also think it seems pretty perilous to suggest that politicians should lie to voters for their own good. I think by the time you’ve taken all the real objections seriously, there’s not going to be much left of your thesis.

    • CT

      “responsibility not to vote in their ignorance”

      I wonder if there’s a responsibility not to ‘legislate in their ignorance’ as well. I mean, how many politicians are too stupid (or lazy … or corrupt) to be lying to us?

    • Jason Brennan

      If voters have no influence at all, then my argument doesn’t make sense, because there’s no sense to be made of the idea of protecting the innocent from bad voters.

      But, fortuitously, voters do influence policy outcomes, though according to Martin Gilens, some voters have much more influence than others.

      • Jameson Graber

        What I said was that voters influence the outcome of elections, and not policies directly. So the reason it’s not analogous is not the presence or lack of influence, but on *what* exactly the influence is. Lying to stop someone from implementing a terrible policy seems like a good analogy with lying to stop someone from killing a bunch of people (accidentally, intentionally, whatever). Lying to get elected over another guy just seems blatantly self-serving.

        • Jason Brennan

          Voter policy preferences do have a strong effect on what political outcomes occur. That’s not controversial.

          • Jameson Graber

            That’s like saying, “Consumer product preferences have a strong effect on what people sell. That’s not controversial.” So would you say, by analogy, that it’s okay (even commendable) to lie about what you’re selling in order to get people to buy your product?

            It sounds like the logical conclusion of what you’re saying is not that politicians should lie to voters, but that democracy really shouldn’t exist.

      • michael

        No one is more down on voters than me but what is the solution? Of course, limiting government so that more and more decisions are made individually where incentives to act an informed manner are far stronger (the old example of how much more time people spend choosing a fridge than picking “the leader of the free word). But how to get there? Would you favor limiting the number of people who could vote? Anyone who did so would be viciously denounced even though there are arguments in favor of adopting such a system though I worry how it could be structured reasonably (knowledge tests?)

        • How about …. Combination of: Voter ID, Proof of being a net payer of taxes and passing a choice of one of three short random quizzes: Math, Logic or Vocabulary

  • j r

    I’ve asked this question every time the stupid voters/moral obligation not to vote thing comes up and I’ve never seen an answer. If not Jason, then perhaps someone else can tell me.

    When you say that voters are stupid, do you mean that they have stupid normative preferences or that they are unable to make reasonable positive choices in service of their normative preferences?

    • Jameson Graber

      Pretty sure we’re not talking bad normative preferences here, but rather factually inaccurate beliefs which have serious consequences for the economy and well-being of society.

    • Jason Brennan

      At least one, or both.

      • Theresa Klein

        Perhaps they are ignorant, misinformed and irrational *because* policymakers have been lying to them for a very long time.

        • Jason Brennan

          No, they’re ignorant, misinformed, and irrational because 1) ignorance and bias are normal, and 2) the expected utility of overcoming bias and ignorance is negative given that out votes count for so little.

          • nightowwl

            I suggest you look a little deeper.

            They’ve been told a story since they were born. We all have. No one knows the ‘truth’ because people don’t like to hear questions outside their comfort zone. And people who ask questions outside the box are shouted down, called crazy, and of course killed.

            Religion and history (religion for those who think they are too smart to get suckered by religion) – two stories out of infinite possibilities. And by the way – the government is a farce.You really believe there is a two-party system? Hah! There is only one party at the top of the food chain. The party of power.

            I no longer participate in their insanity. I have my own life to live – I have no moral obligation to support a government that is corrupt beyond repair. And if that rubs you the wrong way, you can thank the years of propaganda you were subject to.

        • nightowwl

          right

  • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

    Roughly what percentage of voters are too stupid to vote, and what is the empirical evidence that eliminating those voters would produce a more just society?

    • Jason Brennan

      Depends on just how high the standards are. But it’s at least 35% that are out-to-lunch know-nothings.

      If striking them from the rolls produced a more unjust society, though, I would not favor striking them from the rolls. For me, the choice between democracy and epistocracy is purely instrumental.

      • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

        Thanks for the clarification, although I note the absence of citation to any empirical evidence. Thus, I take your argument to be purely a philosophical one, and not a policy recommendation, i.e. in the (very unlikely, in my opinion) event that we come to know that restricting the franchise will produce a more just society, we should do so.

        Even so, I think you have ended up with what Nozick condemned as a mere “utilitarianism of rights.” You would deny citizens the equal protection of the law in order to promote the greater good. But, while justice is a noble ideal, you are still using competent (if stupid) adults solely as a means to an end. This is precisely why Nozick held that it would be wrong to violate the rights of a person even if in doing so you would preserve the rights of a greater number.

        • Jason Brennan

          For evidence, you can check out Somin’s last book, Caplan’s book, Keeter and Delli-Carpini, the last chapter of my book on voting ethics, or chapter 2 of my forthcoming book Against Politics, Scott Althaus’s book, the Oxford Handbook of Political Psychology, etc.

          The overwhelming majority of citizens are ignorant of basically everything that matters, and, worse, a large majority are misinformed, too.

          • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

            With respect, that is not the point. I have no issue with what you assert in the second paragraph. What is controversial is whether this ignorance and/or misinformation results in the election of politicians who then enact unjust laws and pursue unjust policies. By chance, or by voting in what they regard as their self-interest (however they see it), or for those politicians who seems like “nice guys,” these voters might cast “better” votes than their more educated counterparts.

            If we limited the franchise to college and university professors, we would certainly have a much more intelligent and well-informed electorate than we do now. Would this electorate produce a more just society? I seriously doubt it. It would probably reflect Marxist thinking to a greater extent than anything we have seen in this country to date. Would limiting the vote to the top 65% or so of citizens, improve our society? Well, I don’t think you know the answer to that one either.

            Also, your argument rests on the assumption that we know what justice is. If your proposal results in a more libertarian polity, you and I will cheer, but “liberals” will not. So, your argument works only if we grant you a highly controversial assumption.

        • Jason Brennan

          As for the utilitarianism of rights: Not exactly. I believe that moral rights are a side constraint. However, I also believe that no one has any basic right, in virtue of being a human being or a member of a political community, to have any political power at all. The rights to run for office or to vote are purely conventional and to be justified entirely on instrumental grounds. (I haven’t argued for this; I’m just stating what the difference is in my view.)

          • Libertymike

            In a related vein, when confronted with the argument that term limits circumscribe the electoral rights of voters, I respond that the electoral or political rights of others must be subordinate to the rights of individuals to be free from the corruption, crony capitalism, graft, parasitism and totalitarian impulses of career politicians.

          • good_in_theory

            But term limits often have the effect of making short term, inexperienced legislators more beholden to bureaucrats and lobbyists. It’s a pretty ambivalent reform.

          • Libertymike

            Theoretically, why would the shorter term elected official be more beholden to the lobbyists if she knows that she does not have to bother with cultivating relationships and spending time with the lobbyists and fundraisers and special interest groups the long term support from which is a non-factor?

          • good_in_theory

            If a career in office is foreclosed then industry becomes relatively more attractive as an exit option.

            But the main problem is information and learning.

          • Les Kyle Nearhood

            Except in our system it is assumed that the electorate has a right to be governed by people of their choice. If you second guess them because you think you are right and they are wrong you violate the spirit of democracy, and you also hubristicly substitute your own views for the views of the majority.

          • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

            Yes, and no one has a basic right to have the state marry them. But, libertarians rightly hold that if the state is going to grant this right, it must do so equally to all. If you vary from this on the grounds of promoting the greater good, it seems to me indistinguishable from what Nozick is warning against.

  • ThaomasH

    I think one problem with this is that it looks like a one round game. Also, I don’t see how one can lie to stupid voters without also lying to non-stupid voters. I will go this far: I’ll agree to be less critical of a politician caught reneging on an unwise campaigning promise than one reneging on a wise one.

    • Jason Brennan

      I agree. That’s a complication-lying is strategic.

  • Step 1: Assume the worst of people.
    Step 2: Leverage that assumption to justify immoral behavior.
    Step 3: Profit?

  • MightMakesRight.IsAY

    Plato has already written on this. He called this type of lying “noble.” You must be one of the goldens…

    • Jason Brennan

      Most likely, yeah, I’m in the top 1% when it comes to voting quality.

  • UE

    The problem here is that you’ve assumed you, or the reader, or whoever is doing the lying, actually has an objective knowledge of which policies are ‘good’ and ‘bad’ on which to act. Voting is there (partly) because nobody has this knowledge (Hayek anyone?) – people have reasonable disagreements and different values/beliefs. Not to put words in your mouth, but I can’t help but feel you’re half way toward advocating some form of deliberate misinformation to ‘guard’ people against their ‘harmful’ beliefs. Feels Orwellian to me.

    • Jason Brennan

      I’m not for guarding people against their harmful beliefs. I’m for guarding innocent people against other people’s harmful actions. That’s the big difference. People can do whatever they want to themselves, but they can’t do whatever they want to others.

      • Sean II

        But…if guarding people against the harmful actions of others involves lying to those others, then yes…you end up guarding them against their own harmful beliefs. Or trying to, anyway.

        • Unlearning Economics

          This still requires that you know exactly which policies are or are not harmful in some objective sense.

          • Jason Brennan

            I don’t think that’s a difficult burden to overcome. Already wrote a book on that.

  • Sean II

    The problem with all of your examples is…it’s obvious which lie to tell, and it’s taken for granted that predictable behavior will flow from the lie.

    In real life, that’s almost never true. You need to face the many ways in which lying may and likely will backfire.

    To use a favorite example:

    In the 1960s urban crime started shooting through the roof, and scared America half out of its wits. The most likely explanation for this was, and still is, a pattern of racial-demographic change in major cities.

    Even back then, that explanation was considered unpalatable, because if acknowledged, it would become grist for the mill of evil, nasty racists…at just the moment in history when evil, nasty racism was culturally on the ropes.

    So what did people do? They told voters (and everyone else) a series of lies calculated to be less harmful than the truth.

    One of these was “poverty causes crime”, which turned out to be both a) false, and b) the inspiration for countless failed policies, most of which did nothing to reduce crime, and much to increase poverty.

    Another of those lies was: “It’s the drugs! Pot and coke and heroin are turning our kids into killers.”

    Just look how that turned out. It’s true that racists were denied an opportunity to gloat, but the cost of frustrating them has proved enromous.

    So lying to voters isn’t the straightforward, cost-free proposition you describe. Its complicated, messy, and most of all, very dangerous.

    • Jason Brennan

      Yes, it’s complicated, messy, and dangerous. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong to lie to them. It just means it’s difficult to apply the principle of when one can lie to them.

      Sort of like just war theory: It’s easy to produce a theory of just war, but it’s hard to apply it in the real world.

    • good_in_theory

      Or it’s lead poisoning, which actually does have something to do with poverty, though it wasn’t obvious at the time. But no, it must be race, damn the evidence. Sean has his common sense correlations.

      • Sean II

        That lead story is such a perfect lullaby for the left! It has everything you could want: a nasty chemical produced by careless corporations, innocent children ingesting undetected poison, a host of social problems (and awkward question) explained away, and in the final act, bureaucrats descend to the stage in a shimmering contrivance, to rescue the children of the future with – what else? -a new regulation.

        • good_in_theory

          It’s also robust to empirical evidence across countries, cities, neighborhoods, time periods, and has a clear causal mechanism.

          But it’s convenient for liberals so that’s irrelevant.

          • Sean II

            I don’t mean this as a rhetorical ploy, but I’m really disappointed in you.

            First, I can’t believe you’d gulp down on such a classic case of spurious correlation. Frankly, this is a Malcolm Gladwell level of intellectual schlock, a’la “Slurp: What Kitten’s Tongues Can Teach Us About Derivatives”. It’s just one step ahead of skirt-length and stock markets.

            Second, I can’t believe you’re being so reckless. Normally you play a tighter game of defense. But in this case you’re basically accepting the premise “lower IQ = more likely to commit crimes”, on the condition that you get to blame lower IQs on paint and petrol.

            The problem is…you’re the one leaving behind a potentially poisonous (for you, anyway) residue. Because that premise you acknowledged will, thanks to its being true, stick around a lot longer than the temporarily trendy theory for whose sake you acknowledged it.

          • good_in_theory

            Lead doesn’t solely affect IQ measurements. Its neuro-cognitive effects are more wide ranging than that. And if it does affect IQ measurements, so what? If the position is that IQ measurements depend upon environmental conditions and that those measurements will respond to environmental interventions, then evidence that IQ varies with environmental conditions is hardly a problem.

            I didn’t “gulp down” the lead explanation. I figured it was spurious when I first came across it because of the time lagged correlation. But it appears to work in quite a number of disparate situations and the micro-foundations make sense. I’ve yet to see any empirical observations that blow up the correlation as spurious like happened with Freakonomics on abortion.

          • Sean II

            The ever-cool Steve Pinker does a pretty good takedown on this.

            Point #1 of which is: this is the Freakonomics abortion debate all over again, because what we have here are two distant variables, with nowhere near enough evidence to establish the intervening facts needed to connect them.

            Real research doesn’t happen by taking lead emissions (or skirt length) and just graphing that over a dependent variable like crime (or stock prices). Real research would proceed step by agonizing step. First, we have to establish that lead levels were actually high enough to potentially cause exposure at a given level. Then, we have to establish the range or threshold at which such exposure becomes dangerous to humans. Then, we need data showing that the lead actually reached such levels in actual people. Then, we need to look for a bunch of predicted effects (and no, we don’t get to just look for the one we like!): did IQs go down, did school test scores go down, did mental health referrals go up, did incidence of GI disease go up, if so how much, etc. If we establish that lead poisoning effects were present at a level sufficient to explain some big changes (like the rise in crime 1960 – 1990), we need a set of predictions about how those effects would show themselves. And then we need to go scrutinize those, and so on. Then comes the really hard part, when we expose ourselves to criticism and counterexamples. They had cars in Montreal, didn’t they? Why so much safer there than Chicago? Why did white suburbanites with long commutes fare so much better than blacks in the south bronx who didn’t even have cars? And what about maternal smoking? Isn’t that a better explanation with more plausible direct effects than…and so on, forever.

            See what I’m saying? There’s a very good reason why this particular “discovery” was published in Mother Jones instead of Nature.

            In the end – for this is the hallmark of real science as opposed to Malcolm Gladwellery – you should end up with something that sounds like: “Eureka! A careful study of the connection between lead emissions and crime has led us to believe that as much as 7% – that’s right, suckers, we said 7-mother-fucking-% – of the great crime wave can be explained by time-lagged neurotoxic effects of childhood lead poisoning,…although further research is needed.”

          • Christian Kleineidam

            There are peer reviewed studies about the lead effect. I think I heard about it roughly 6 years before the Mother Jones article ( http://events.ccc.de/congress/2007/Fahrplan/events/2334.en.html ).

            Nature publishes new discoveries. In 2013 when the Mother Jones article was published the link was far from new. It’s just that nobody explained the idea to the mainstream audience who doesn’t read scientific papers before that point.

            In Freakonomics case they tried to say something new. In the Mother Jones case, it’s just saying what’s already said in published papers and making the argument with pretty graphs.

          • Sean II

            About that link…please forgive me, but I don’t read German.

          • Christian Kleineidam

            I just referred to the source where I first heard of the argument. It’s the biggest German hacker conference. A bit like DefCon but more interested into politics. It not necessary to follow the link to follow my argument.

            It makes no sense to focus on the Mother Jones article when there are published papers on the subject.

            For example we do have a study that shows that adjudicated delinquents were four times more likely to have bone lead concentrations >25 ppm than controls. ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0892036202002696 )

          • Sean II

            Wrong. It makes perfect sense to focus on the Mother Jones piece because that’s the only place you’ll find a lead=>crime conclusion as sweeping as GiT’s.

            Papers like the one you just linked support a much more modest conclusion…that delinquents had higher levels of bone lead than non-delinquents.

            Okay, fine…but that may well be a mere marker to a common cause: i.e. an impoverished childhood raises the risk of lead poisoning and delinquency.

            See the difference?

          • good_in_theory

            Actually, my conclusion wasn’t sweeping. It was an offhand remark in a tone less glib than your own pronouncements.

            I’m pretty sure the folks doing research on lead are aware of confounding and reverse causation. It just might be that they’ve looked into it. Maybe you should check it out.

          • Sean II

            Yeah, you’re definitely not yourself this evening. Something about your word choice is different.

            Had a couple drinks perhaps?

          • good_in_theory

            It must be lead poisoning.

          • Sean II

            Hahahahaha. That was good.

  • ppnl

    I once had a discussion with a republican who was thinking about running
    for office. He stated he would just have to lie about being a
    creationist since he could not get elected otherwise. He argued that it
    was better to have a fake creationist in office than a real one.

    How can I know if he is lying about lying about being a creationist?

    This
    is how nonsense gets mainstreamed in the republican party. Lying is
    corrupting to the process, the party and the individual.

    • Exactly!

    • Exactly!

    • Exactly!

    • Exactly!

    • Exactly!

    • Sean II

      Wait, I thought Obama was a Democrat?

      • genemarsh

        For a long time I thought you weren’t a Republican

      • ppnl

        Yes he is and yes he lies. I remember him giving support ti antivaxers in the last election. And while it may not be as mind numbingly stupid as YEC it is more immediately dangerous.

        Now back on topic… how can anyone think that these lies are a good idea? You drive anyone with a functioning brain away and leave the election to the people stupid enough to believe the lies. The next step is to only have candidates that believe the lies. And then the postmodernists win as truth becomes a social construct by political decree.

  • How do you determine cut-off levels of ignorance? Can any slightly more informed voter lie to any slightly less informed voter?

    Does it matter if the lie is only partially political in character? Is lying about an affair a political lie? What if to preserve the political lie you have to lie to people whom it affects personally, ie also lying about an affair to a wife to keep it out I the media? Lying to your son about policy to not appear hypocritical when you lie to the polity?

    How do we determine the points at which the (weak) “wisdom of crowd” effects and (not very good) “ignorant voters using heuristics to vote smarter” effects aren’t strong enough to overcome ignorance?

    Even though I am less ignorant than most voters, I don’t feel like I could do a better job than the democratic process. I’m still very ignorant about most things, after all, especially everyone’s individual utility function. Further, I feel like my lies will, at the margin, make democracy function worse. Am I clearly wrong, or just wrong? Should that degree of certainty affect how much you lie?

  • Theresa Klein

    But what if it turns out that you are wrong, and the consortium of well meaning but stupid wizards are right, and the correct words are ”Thrak burzum, thrak mokum, thrak ufum!”

    And lo and behold, it turns out that ”Gellon ned i gelir i chent gin ned i lelig.” are the words that cause famine and suffering.

    Now you not only have thrown the wrong words in the fire and caused famine and suffering, but in addition, everyone THINKS that “Thrak burzum, thrak mokum, thrak ufum!” actually caused all the pain and suffering. So they immediately start demanding that the consortium of well-meaning but stupid wizards try throwing ”Gellon ned i gelir i chent gin ned i lelig.” in the fire instead. (Mistakenly believing that WASN’T what you actually did in the first place).

    I’m sensing a very strong analogy to lots of government policies here:
    1) Implement some sort of hare-brained economic scheme which you intend to improve the economy
    2) Tell everyone that your actually implementing “free market” policies
    3) Economy blows up – everyone blames “free market” policies for the problem.
    4) People demand more hare-brained economic schemes believing this will improve the economy.

    • Les Kyle Nearhood

      Well we have actually witnessed this dynamic unfold in recent years.

  • ZPT205

    I thought Kant was specifically asked about the murderer-at-the-door case? What makes you think even he would accept lying in that circumstance?

  • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

    Jason,
    The more I think about your proposal, the more puzzled I get. If, as you said, your objective is to produce a more just society by adjusting the voting pool, and if you believe you know what justice consists of, why stop with half-measures. If you believe that justice consists of libertarianism, why not limit the vote to those who can answer probing and in-depth questions regarding the thought of Nozick, Hayek, Mises, etc. Or to those who can pass a lie-detector test proving their libertarian beliefs. Better yet, if we know what justice consists of, why vote at all. Why don’t you simply propose that we impose libertarianism by force? On the other hand, if you don’t know what justice consists of, how will you know whether you proposal is successful in practice?

    • Jason Brennan

      Check out my theory of voting ethics. My view is not that all and only libertarians can vote. On the contrary, I think most libertarians are bad voters and owe it to you not to vote.

      • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

        Okay, I can’t resist one more question. You said earlier, “If striking them from the rolls produced a more unjust society, though, I would not favor striking them from the rolls. For me, the choice between democracy and epistocracy is purely instrumental.” So, please explain how striking libertarians from the rolls will produce a more just society. Also, you still haven’t explained why we should permit voting at all. Why not just impose just laws and institutions?

    • Sean II

      I believe, indeed I have always believed, that no one should be able to vote until he has beaten David Friedman at Settlers of Catan.

      • MARK_D_FRIEDMAN

        Well, that excludes me on multiple counts.

  • ThaomasH

    I see. If voters were told that Iraq did NOT have WMD’s they would not have approved of invading Iraq.

    • Les Kyle Nearhood

      Now you are catching on.

  • famadeo

    Right, stupid people exist and they should be lied to because letting them have a say *might be pernicious*. Because policies drawn out be congress and technocrats are always well-conceived and policies in general are univocally “good” or “bad”.

    Also, identifying someone as stupid (given the apparently obvious standard that determines people as either “stupid” or “smart” *and* the fact that everyone fits neatly into either of these categories) should be no problem. And if we can’t, we’ll just lie to everyone as a precaution since we know they’re out there.

    Also, there are people that can be called dangerous or evil. Hmm… we may have to rethink certain guidelines of our tradition that let’s these things fall through the cracks, such as that “innocent until proven guilty” crap.

    Remind me, what does “bleeding heart” libertarian mean again?

    • good_in_theory

      To be fair, I think Jason’s response is more along the lines of, “stupid people exist so there should be no such thing as a congress which conceives policies.”

  • stevenjohnson2

    Two points seem to have been overlooked. First, the need to lie is proportionate to the power of the voter to affect policy. Since legislators have even more power than the voter in general elections, it is even more imperative to lie to legislators. And it is absolutely imperative to lie to the President.

    Second, the relative positions of the murderer and the superior human is irrelevant. The wise one could be outside the door and the murderer inside. The moral issues, detached from piddly questions about how anyone is supposed to learn and justify the premises of the problems posed, are the same. Everyone who approaches a legislator is obligated to lie to prevent harm (the metaphorical murder of the analogies.) And it is absolutely imperative to lie to the President.

    People who approach the murderers’ doors (voters, legislators and the President) are either formal advisors (administration officials holding office) and informal political advisors. Informal advisors are not just personal, as in a President’s chief of staff but also institutional, such as lobbyists or publicists or party functionaries.

    All, all are obligated to lie.

    The obvious question then, isn’t Jason Brennan practicing what he preaches?

    But, since he’s lying, why should we pay attention?

    Since lies have no truth value, the only criterion is personal taste, of which the knowledge of the ages tells us, “De gustibis non disputandum.”

    • stevenjohnson2

      Annoying typo: gustibus, not gustibis.

      • Les Kyle Nearhood

        I am sure the Latin grammar Nazis were all set to flame you. >wink<

  • rick11

    The problem, as I see it, is that you’re assuming the politicians are protecting the electorate from making stupid choices. I suppose there are instances of this, but generally speaking that’s a rarity.
    Politicians generally lie to the electorate in order to get something (their vote) which gives them something else (power of the purse/law making) which enables them to do something they want (enrich themselves/friends/payback the voters who voted stupidly with money from others).

    Telling the truth is not at all compulsory, and it certainly isn’t the main guide for supporting a politician. All politicians lie, that’s expected. It’s HOW they lie that’s important.
    Obama certainly hasn’t lied to us to prevent bad decisions from being made. He’s lied in order to make myriad bad decisions.

  • Arturo Goosnargh

    There’s a problem:

    The duty of stupid leaders to lie to clever voters only because he thinks they are wrong.

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